Pirate flags ....

[diapason]

Maybe the Jolly Roger should only be flown by today's pirates - ie politicians, bankers and, perhaps, tax gatherers
N

 

[Litotes]

Perhaps a lot of the glamourisation of old-time pirates had to do with many of them being privateers operating for the Crown under letters of marque, and not being simple honest robbers and murderers.

I'm not so sure about that. Privateers and pirates were very different beasts. Privateers operated as private warships - sort of nautical mercinaries - and made their profits from prize money. Pirates were simply maritime robbers, taking any vessels they could without distinction. No prize money for them from any government.

Perhaps privateers sometimes turned to piracy and vice versa, according to circumstances, but I suspect that the two types of activity were carried out by very different sorts of people. Privateering was, after all, seen as a legitimate and respectable pursuit in times of war. Pirates were never seen as anything but criminals.

Like Sophie19, I assume that a pirate flag means there are children on board. I can't imagine why any adult would hoist one for any other reason, but, as always, each to their own.

 

[DaveS]

..the following came about in 1606 when James I (James VI of Scotland) came to the throne.. so way after Drake, but before the Act of Union (1707) bought in Ireland....

That's not quite right. The Union flag was changed to its present form in 1801 when the UK of Great Britain became the UK of Great Britain and Ireland.

There appears to be some controversy about whether the previous version of the Union flag as pictured came into being at, or closely following, the Union of the Crowns in 1603 or on the creation of the UK in 1707. The latter has always seemed to me to be the more likely, since in the period 1603 to 1707 Scotland and England were independent countries that happened to share a sovereign (a bit like present day Canada and New Zealand), so it is difficult to see any need then for a new national flag.

This should be a simple matter of facts, but sources seem confused. The relevant Wikipedia article talks about a Union flag being designed in 1606 - the date quoted in the previous post - but goes on to suggest that this was only used at sea and then talks about the design of the Union flag being determined in 1707. Can anyone point to anything more authoritative?

 

[Fantasie 19]

That's not quite right. The Union flag was changed to its present form in 1801 when the UK of Great Britain became the UK of Great Britain and Ireland.

There appears to be some controversy about whether the previous version of the Union flag as pictured came into being at, or closely following, the Union of the Crowns in 1603 or on the creation of the UK in 1707. The latter has always seemed to me to be the more likely, since in the period 1603 to 1707 Scotland and England were independent countries that happened to share a sovereign (a bit like present day Canada and New Zealand), so it is difficult to see any need then for a new national flag.

This should be a simple matter of facts, but sources seem confused. The relevant Wikipedia article talks about a Union flag being designed in 1606 - the date quoted in the previous post - but goes on to suggest that this was only used at sea and then talks about the design of the Union flag being determined in 1707. Can anyone point to anything more authoritative?

Yep - my bad as my kids say... it was the Act of Union of 1800 that added Ireland to the flag.... not the 1707 one....

 

[MudShipper]

Still on the books

Bit strange this one. I seem to remember that i read somewhere that the RN (if we still had one) are allowed to open fire on any vessel flying the Jolly roger without warning.Urban myth maybe--I'm not sure, i never heard about during my service but you never know.

I was told once in my impressionable youth (not so long ago) that not only is Piracy still an offence and one of RNs responsibilities to police, but that it is the only offence still on the statute books punishable by Hanging. not sure if that is true. Anyone out there who knows or can find out?

 

[Tidewaiter2]

I was told once in my impressionable youth (not so long ago) that not only is Piracy still an offence and one of RNs responsibilities to police, but that it is the only offence still on the statute books punishable by Hanging. not sure if that is true. Anyone out there who knows or can find out?

MudShipper, that is also my understanding of the legal position, hence QHM Pompey's and various foreign maritime police attitudes to an S&K, and the 'shoot on sight' position- nowadays only Russian warships do that, everyone else suggests they surrender first

'Flying the bones' was/is an open declaration you are 'on the account', ie prepared to/actually engaged in the act of piracy, which made/makes you 'ultra vires' or 'wolfshead', and thus fair game, for anyone who could, to kill or take you......
Now, help me get the M49 ring and twin 50's up thru the forehatch, we're approaching a Chi Harbour dinghy start line laid across the navigable channel at HW

 

[prv]

I was told once in my impressionable youth (not so long ago) that not only is Piracy still an offence and one of RNs responsibilities to police, but that it is the only offence still on the statute books punishable by Hanging. not sure if that is true. Anyone out there who knows or can find out?

I believe piracy and high treason were the last two capital crimes in the UK, but we signed a European treaty some years ago agreeing to abolish the death penalty under all circumstances, at which point the relevant law was changed.

Pete

 

[MudShipper]

I believe piracy and high treason were the last two capital crimes in the UK, but we signed a European treaty some years ago agreeing to abolish the death penalty under all circumstances, at which point the relevant law was changed.

Pete

Well, we don't want innocent Pirates being chastised, do we?

 

[diapason]

I seem to remember that Anthony Bliar removed the death penalty for Treason (I wonder why? ) - I don't remember hearing that he did the same for Piracy.
N

 

[FullCircle]

Good Grief.

I guess a lot of you aren't going to attend the East Coast annual Pirates Weekend in the Walton Backwaters on the 4th August all welcome, then?

Very scary outpouring of criminal intent.

 

[Woodlouse]

I seem to remember that Anthony Bliar removed the death penalty for Treason (I wonder why? ) - I don't remember hearing that he did the same for Piracy.
N

I believe the death penalty was removed for all crimes that still carried it at the same time. They didn't make much of a fuss about it at the time as realistically it was a sentence that was never going to be used anyway.

 

[diapason]

A pity....... there are a number of bankers and politicians who should swing from the yardarm

 

[reginaldon]

A pity....... there are a number of bankers and politicians who should swing from the yardarm

I saw their flags outside Lloyds Bank half an hour ago!

 

[Lakesailor]

Here comes Bob Diamond, now on holiday.

 

[IanH]

..the following came about in 1606 when James I (James VI of Scotland) came to the throne.. so way after Drake, but before the Act of Union (1707) bought in Ireland....

Sorry to do this but the Acts of Union 1706 and 07 were between England and Scotland; the Acts of Union 1800 and 01 were between England and Ireland.

Edit too late sorry.

 

[Sgeir]

I suspect drake flew a red ensign with a st George's cross in the canton.

To call him a pirate is a bit harsh though. Remember we did win which makes him a gallant British hero.

Not exactly a British hero either. Even by the standards of the time, Drake's slaughter of surrendered troops and the entire civilian population at Rathlin was appalling.

 

[maxi77]

Traditionally the Scull and Crossbones is a symbol of mans mortality, and was regularly used on tombstones in Scotland, and on entrances to cemetries on the Iberian peninsula.

One can see how this symbolism may have led to some pirates using it to enhance theri reputation for bloodthirstyness, but as a modern kids symbol? But what ever turns you on.

I for one see no link between kids pirate antics and real piracy on the oceans today which does not seem to use any for of flag what so ever. Perhaps the pirates of old used their flags to avoid fines from zealous froggie customs men.

 

[andytrombone]

I always understood that the skull and crossbones was the battle flag of The Knights Templar, am I wrong?

 

[Reptile Smile]

Dylan (am now unsure whether I should capitalise your name or not..?) - where I'm with you on this is how odd it all is about symbolism and imagery.

I have no beef with anyone wanting to fly a Jolly Roger, and take no offence. I equally would take offence at someone flying a swastika, and yet both are images from days gone by, as you say. Why is one acceptable, and the other not? I have no idea, but am suitably intrigued...

It's a conversation I seem to end up with often at school with kids. Why is one swear word more offensive than another? They're just words, after all..?

Hell if I know. It's a funny old business, this 'life' game...

 

[benjenbav]

Geez, now I've read this thread I shall go straight to the attic, retrieve my Swallows and Amazons books and burn the lot. Can't have that sort of imagery around the house.