Permanent Mooring Lines

[CrossedThreads]

Afternoon all,

I’m going to make up some permanent mooring lines attached to the pontoon cleats to make putting the boat to bed quicker when returning from a sail.

So I’m settled on the appropriate (18mm - slightly oversized) three strand polyester as the lines won’t be handled much.

I’m going to add some Dyneema anti chafe sleeving to the fixed loops and at the point the line will go through the fairlead.

Where I can’t make my mind up… Thimbles and Shackles…
Galvanised or Stainless?
Normal thimbles or closed thimbles?

What would the collective wisdom of the forum recommend and I have I missed anything else?

Thank You

 

[ctva]

First question, boat type and size.

Why oversized 18mm polyester? That will not give appropriate stretch and elasticity for your boats size and weight. Manufacturers put size recommendations on for a reason and oversizing provides no benefits. We are 34’ and 7.5 tonnes and use 14mm three strand polyester.. it has a 4.5 tonne load limit so the deck cleats would come out first!

As to thimbles and shackles on to the cleats, why??? Added links and for what purposes? The line tied on to the cleat with a bowline is simple and secure. We have permanent three strand polyester, ties with bowlines at the pontoon cleats and spliced loops for our cleats with no wear at the cleat after 5 years.

Keep it simple.

 

[RJJ]

Afternoon all,

I’m going to make up some permanent mooring lines attached to the pontoon cleats to make putting the boat to bed quicker when returning from a sail.

So I’m settled on the appropriate (18mm - slightly oversized) three strand polyester as the lines won’t be handled much.

I’m going to add some Dyneema anti chafe sleeving to the fixed loops and at the point the line will go through the fairlead.

Where I can’t make my mind up… Thimbles and Shackles…
Galvanised or Stainless?
Normal thimbles or closed thimbles?

What would the collective wisdom of the forum recommend and I have I missed anything else?

Thank You

It's likely if you have metal to metal contact on the cleat that you end up wearing the cleat itself. I would use a spliced loop with a chafe cover, passed through and over the horns to limit movement.

Then I would give thought to stretch, which is desirable. If it's at all exposed then I would incorporate some rubber compensators or a stainless spring. Not only does it take the sting out of any surging and reduces shocks to the boat, it also helps preserve the lines.

18mm is what I used for permanent lines for a 45 footer on a very exposed mid-river pontoon at the Hamble entrance. Heavy wash from boats nudging the 6knot speed limit, and exposure to estuary waves in brisk southerly.

 

[Sandy]

What would the collective wisdom of the forum recommend

Have a chat with the lovely people at Jimmy Green in Beer.

 

[boomerangben]

I think your neighbours (and maybe yourself) might have a dim view of clanking shackles after a bumpy night

 

[johnalison]

A good number, maybe half, in our marina use shackles, though the hoops make this desirable. I also use shackles, largely to prevent chafe and casual removal. With a cleat, I would also be concerned about petty theft, which, although not common, would be singularly irritating. An alternative to prevent chafe would be a cow hitch, or an loop similarly attached. Most marina cleats have a hole that could be used for this, and it would leave the cleat free for visitors when the berth is vacant.

 

[colind3782]

We have 16mm 3 strand polyester (33', 3.5 Tonnes) attached to the dock rings with bowlines and a length of hose in the bowlines to prevent chafe. Where the lines pass through the fairleads there is another chafe prevention length of hose over the line. The lines are OXO'd onto the cleats as I want to be able to release them under tension from the boat if necessary which a loop would not allow.

 

[CrossedThreads]

Wow lots of great info already! Thank You

Boat is 39 foot and circa 10 tonnes.

16mm is the recommended Liros line size (I am unlikely to use Liros, probably Robline which has a slightly lower breaking strength). So increasing to 18mm is not excessive and will still give a level of stretch on the lines.

I’d much rather use 16mm from a cost perspective. However feel a little more comfortable with 18mm. I may not always be able to get back to the boat in a significant blow.

In terms of attachment to the yacht’s cleats; this will be either OXO or a loop dependant on the order which they are to be made fast. The loops will help the boat rest in the same place each time we return. Reducing time spent “leaving” which will certainly go down well with the boss!

My desire for shackles and thimbles on the pontoon cleat is to avoid chafe, ensure the line is permanently attached so there is less worry of these going walkabout when we are away from our berth and that a splice will always maintain more of the lines strength than any knot we can tie.

Someone mentioned room on the cleats for visitors, hadn’t though of it from this point of view however shackles will certainly help with this.

The noise issue raised is interesting, I’ve seen lots of boats with a similar set up, is this a big issue? I had thought about it but dismissed it as unlikely to be an issue. Would nylon thimbles resolve this?

So in terms of thimbles and shackles: are we talking stainless, galvanised or one of the aforementioned along with nylon for sound concerns?

 

[KevinT1]

I’d suggest you check with your marina first - Plymouth Yacht Haven ban shackles onto the cleats as the shackle wears the aluminium cleat which in turn can cut into other peoples mooring lines and / or cause early failure of the cleat.

 

[dunedin]

I’d suggest you check with your marina first - Plymouth Yacht Haven ban shackles onto the cleats as the shackle wears the aluminium cleat which in turn can cut into other peoples mooring lines and / or cause early failure of the cleat.

Yes, I used to use chain and shackles on our heavy winter mooring ropes but changing back to rope loops instead - as risk of wearing aluminium cleats and extra failure points makes chained on ropes less secure

 

[Refueler]

I’d suggest you check with your marina first - Plymouth Yacht Haven ban shackles onto the cleats as the shackle wears the aluminium cleat which in turn can cut into other peoples mooring lines and / or cause early failure of the cleat.

I would also check to see that your chosen marina / berth allows you to put 'permanent lines' .... I know when I was in UK marina - it was frowned on as the berth was not actually yours as a permanent .... marina reserved right to allocate your berth to visitors, to even choose different berth for you ..

 

[superheat6k]

I would suggest using rubber snubbers with say 14 - 16mm non or polyester. The snubbers take up any stiff or snatch loads so no need for hard metal shackles on the pontoon cleats.

 

[Praxinoscope]

We use Octoplait with spliced eyes for the cleats and stainless steel thimble at the chain to warp joins, Octoplait has a good degree of stretch and is pleasant to handle.
Most of the time our moorings are relatively quiet, but can be a bit ‘jumpy’ in strong NW winds, and occasionally can get really bad in that a few years ago we lost 9 boats in one day during Storm Callum in 2018, but despite having a 40’ tree sitting on our stern moorings thé our moorings and boat survived with just a couple of chips out of the rudder grp.

 

[boomerangben]

I have often wondered if round slings choked onto a pontoon cleat would be a suitable solution for a strong, chaff resistant solution.
1 Tonne Round Sling - One Layer. I have no affiliation, random supplier selected by search engine
1te would offer more strength (nearly double) than 16mm polyester, the cover is purely to protect the internal fibres which take the load. Soft eye your chosen mooring warp into the sling….

Any thoughts? Myboat is too small to justify, otherwise would have tried myself.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I would also check to see that your chosen marina / berth allows you to put 'permanent lines' .... I know when I was in UK marina - it was frowned on as the berth was not actually yours as a permanent .... marina reserved right to allocate your berth to visitors, to even choose different berth for you ..

I've always asked but (in a sample of three marinas) none have had a problem with permanent lines. I find it very helpful to have the spring from the end of the finger to the midships clear the right length, as once it's on I know I can motor against it to position the boat correctly for the other lines.

I echo negative feelings about shackles and thimbles. I've never had noticeable chafing at the dock or on the cleats on board - it's where the line passes through fairleads that the chafe happens. I cow-hitch the lines at the dock side, so there's no movement there anyway.

 

[Refueler]

I see mention of Cow Hitch ... a hitch that is designed for BOTH tails to be in use ... if only one - then its inherently unstable. On ships it is only usually seen in two applications :

Chain stopper on wire mooring lines - reason being that it doesn't lock up like a Clove hitch ... The Cow hitch in this is stabilised by one tail being shackled to the deck, other tail is wound round the wire continuing its grip.
Second is a quick way to just hang short rope ties on a railing etc.

Interested to hear why such a hitch is used and for what ??

 

[Stemar]

A cow hitch attaching a spliced eye to the cleat seems to me to be an eminently sensible way to attach permanent lines. No risk of damage to either line or cleat.

If you're allowed to use it, a post on the end of your finger pontoon with a spring you can grab and drop over a handy cleat on board to motor against when conditions are difficult could be a nice thing to have.

 

[Daydream believer]

I use. Cheap 20 mm lines. I splice a loop in each end and one end I pass through the end of the pontoon cleat and then the. Line through that. Then I put a cable tie to it to deter those that are not satisfied with nicking the tap fittings and hose pipes ( yes here at Bradwell they nick the hoses)
the loop on the other end fits the cleat on my boat
what I NEVER do is pass lines through fairleads. Fairleads are the quickest way to Chafe through a rope. I just pass the rope over the side of the boat.
when I am away ( which may be for several weeks at a time) it is obvious the people have used the lines. I do not mind that but one can see chafe points where the idiots have passed them through fairleads.
That is why I use cheap rope. I bought a supply of 40 no used 7 metre 3 strand polypropylene slings from Tilbury docks 10 years ago for 50 p each, so have some spares
i do like them because they float. So I carry 2 for stern lines because if they drop in the water I am less likely to get them round the prop

 

[Refueler]

A cow hitch attaching a spliced eye to the cleat seems to me to be an eminently sensible way to attach permanent lines. No risk of damage to either line or cleat.

If you're allowed to use it, a post on the end of your finger pontoon with a spring you can grab and drop over a handy cleat on board to motor against when conditions are difficult could be a nice thing to have.

Hu Hum ..... now I understand .... that the term Cow Hitch is being misused ...

The use of a spliced or bowline loop in end of rope to create is actually a BALE HITCH or its full name : BALE SLING HITCH.

as in :

Bale Sling Hitch

 

[Neeves]

Hu Hum ..... now I understand .... that the term Cow Hitch is being misused ...

The use of a spliced or bowline loop in end of rope to create is actually a BALE HITCH or its full name : BALE SLING HITCH.

as in :

Bale Sling Hitch

I suggest you look at your link, type 'cow hitch' into their search engine and it will throw up:

Sphider Search

They seem to say a Bale Sling Hitch is a cow hitch.

Everyone here knows what a cow hitch is - bale sling hitch is less well recognised.

Jonathan