PBO - DZR seacocks

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Ammonite

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According to the latest edition of PBO these are not suitable for use on boats. I think they might need to invest in some new experts / proof readers!
 
Ammonite said:
According to the latest edition of PBO these are not suitable for use on boats. I think they might need to invest in some new experts / proof readers!
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Can I ask who wrote the article? I know that one regular contributor is totally confused as to the difference between DZR and 60/40 brass, despite my emailing him with the reality.
 
vyv_cox said:
Can I ask who wrote the article? I know that one regular contributor is totally confused as to the difference between DZR and 60/40 brass, despite my emailing him with the reality.
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The comment is attributed to James Turner of Meridian Zero but its hard to tell if this is his view or he has been wrongly quoted. It starts off talking about brass as being unsuitable but then links this to DZR in the same context

Oddly the article then goes on to say that Blakes and SeaSeal are suitable even though these are made of DZR!
 
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Stemar said:
I can well imagine that the ones from China at 50p a pop might be labelled DZR, because they'll sell better, and still crumble, but not decent ones made of real DZR
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I get that as there's a good chance they aren't made of the DZR but what the article actually says is "Skin fittings should last 30 years, not five. What's more, if you put a boat in a marina with DZR fittings, where there's a lot of stray currents from other boats, you can end up with one that lasts three years and crumbles in your hands" which in my mind suggests they believe that DZR valves sold by the likes of ASAP aren't up to the job.
 
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Ammonite said:
I get that as there's a good chance they aren't made of the DZR but what the article actually says is "Skin fittings should last 30 years, not five. What's more, if you put a boat in a marina with DZR fittings, where there's a lot of stray currents from other boats, you can end up with one that lasts three years and crumbles in your hands" which in my mind suggests they believe that DZR valves sold but the likes of ASAP aren't up to the job.
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Unfortunately this is technobabble. 'Stray currents' are blamed for all sorts of problems but the reality ìs that it is almost always a more basic fault. If DZR seacocks are not electrically connected in a bonding loop they will last for many years.
 
The 'Brass vs DZR' contumely came to light when an alert Forumite noticed that some t'hull fittings were 'dezincifying' swiftly, discovered they were ordinary brass intended for domestic use, and that many boatbuilders ( and suppliers ) were fitting those cheap 'n cheerful Chinese imports because they were much cheaper than traditional bronze or 'Naval Brass'.

Digging deeper, it was found that the wording of the Recreation Craft Directive required such parts to be fit for just '5 years from placing on the market', whereas bronze fittings lasted a lifetime or more. Boat builders quietly opted for the 'cheap and cheerful' and told no-one.

Further, the MDs/CEOs of insurance brokerages, their claims managers and surveyors, also knew of the problem of corroded, failing t'hull fittings but, as they didn't talk to each other much, they didn't identify the widespread nature of the problem....

It was first flagged up in these columns, taken up by the editor of at least one of the YBW stable of mags, and after a while the story came out.

....And it was more than a year before the editor of one of the US's wide-distribution boaty mags agreed to look into the matter. By then, hundreds of boats build in Europe/exported to The States had been built with 'domestic brass' hull fittings. Of, course, that mag's editors claimed the problem had been discovered in the States, by them..... as they do.

:rolleyes:
 
Ben Sutcliffe-Davies is the surveyor referenced in the article and although I originally thought they had inadvertently used brass and DZR interchangeably I suspect this isn't the case and that despite what others say he doesn't think DZR is suitable judging by this article...
Seacock misconceptions busted - Yachting Monthly
He is also not alone judging by a number of articles I've just Googled suggesting that DZR only has a lifespan of 5 years so has the advice changed again since the brass debacle in which case why are DZR valves still being sold as suitable for marine use?

When the problem with brass valves being fitted came to light Yachting Monthly were publishing (in June 2011...)

"This is now known
as DZR (dezincification-resistant)
brass and has the EN designation
of CW602N. This material is
proven to be the equal of bronze
in a saltwater environment
and is now in common use.
Unfortunately, the other similarity
it has with bronze is price."

....and there's plenty of sources that say the same thing today so what's the truth?
 
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I have changed 100's of seacocks & fittings over the years.

I refuse to fit anything that may have been made in China.

Unless bronze is specified, I fit CR marked CW602N DZR from a reputable supplier, where I can trace the source, with a certificate if needed.

All the ones I fit have stainless handles.

Anything brass has no place on a boat.

I prefer to keep the water outside & sleep at night.
 
Ammonite said:
They are likely to crumble to mush within 3 years according to the article! ;-)
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I have a DZR ball vlave from ASAP that is still good after 14 years. Another, from the same batch, I replaced when it was 9 years old even though it was working fine, I then sawed it in half and subjected it to some very heavy hammer blows. It showed absolutely no signs of weakness. I would certainly not trust the author of that article unless he quotes his source/evidence.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
 
starfire said:
I have changed 100's of seacocks & fittings over the years.

I refuse to fit anything that may have been made in China.

Unless bronze is specified, I fit CR marked CW602N DZR from a reputable supplier, where I can trace the source, with a certificate if needed.

All the ones I fit have stainless handles.

Anything brass has no place on a boat.

I prefer to keep the water outside & sleep at night.
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No one is advocating brass. The latest PBO article on seacocks is suggesting that DZR (CW602N) may not be suitable and has a service life of 5 years (their words not mine)
 
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Ammonite said:
Ben Sutcliffe-Davies is the surveyor referenced in the article and although I originally thought they had inadvertently used brass and DZR interchangeably I suspect this isn't the case and that despite what others say he doesn't think DZR is suitable judging by this article...
Seacock misconceptions busted - Yachting Monthly
He is also not alone judging by a number of articles I've just Googled suggesting that DZR only has a lifespan of 5 years so has the advice changed again since the brass debacle in which case why are DZR valves still being sold as suitable for marine use?

When the problem with brass valves being fitted came to light Yachting Monthly were publishing (in June 2011...)

"This is now known
as DZR (dezincification-resistant)
brass and has the EN designation
of CW602N. This material is
proven to be the equal of bronze
in a saltwater environment
and is now in common use.
Unfortunately, the other similarity
it has with bronze is price."

....and there's plenty of sources that say the same thing today so what's the truth?
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I took issue with BSD when his article was first published. He was not able to show me a dezincified DZR valve. Since then skin fittings and hose tails in DZR have become available.

Incidentally, Guidi still make leaded brass valves for seacock use and defend them strongly. AFAIK Hallberg Rassy and others still fit them.
 
To be fair to BSD, he does say in his article that it is the quality of some DZR valves that is in question, and that although the valve may be made of DZR other parts such as hose tails may be of other material and suspect. Is there any type of quality kite mark that gives confidence when buying DZR so you know exactly what you are buying and avoid an expensive mistake??
Personally, I think I would use Tru Design composite fittings as replacements as you know exactly what you are getting. The only problem I see with them is the physical size of the larger fittings, if space is limited.
 
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