paying your way

[Guest]

Hi,

I wonder how long we can sustain a position of "the seas are free - you can't tax us" given the growing implications of pollution and global warming.

Fuel. Why shouldn't yachtsmen pay duty on fuel? There could be a marine duty levied and the revenue could be used to pay for pump out stations, disposal of GRP hulks (at least wood rots and steel rusts!) disposal of waste and cleaning of harbours and river estuaries. As a plus, if diesel cost 75p a litre you can bet that the motor boats out there would either go out less often or go a lot slower. This would make for less wash and congestion.

Lights and Buoyage. Why should the leisure fraternity not pay a share of the buoyage? A huge number of buoys are laid and maintained where commercial shipping doesn't go.

Licensing. Some of the "Sports Cruisers" are capable of at least 20 Knts. Why do we have a problem with demanding that skippers of these beasts demonstrate a certain level of competence? PWC are high powered and can be exceedingly dangerous in the wrong hands. Could we perhaps insist on training for the riders. Maybe we could ask skippers to apply for a provisional licence that covers him for trips within 20 miles of his home port. The licence could be renewed annualy and extended on gaining experience and qualifications.

Boat Tax. Again, why not? Boats tend to generate pollution and someone has to clear it up. It doesn't have to be a huge fee and might it not be better to negotiate a tax that is hypothicated and brings benefit to the boating community instead of just a source of revenue for HMG.

I'm not advocating that any of the above /should/ happen. (Although in my heart of hearts I know most of it /will/ eventually come about. I think maybe some lobbying needs to happen while politicians are searching for ideas as opposed to when they have made up what passes for their minds. Think about it. Who is being taxed? Boat owners. What are boat owners? Rich People. Do we object to taxing Rich People? No!

Never mind that many of us run boats costing less than a family saloon, run an old car to compensate, put up with rowing to the half tidal mooring at 4.30 in the morning. If you own a yacht you are rich in the publics mind.

Regards


Fred

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

I am very very sad that you are probably dead right
Enjoy the freedomm while it lasts
and keep hoping the cost of administration and policing what you outline is a serious deterrent

If it Cooks Flys or Floats, Rent it.

 

[hlb]

Right. We will all join the queue behind you. I'll tag on the back.

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[tcm]

New Labour Has Twisted Your Mind!

You must resist the notion that taxes must invariably rise. It is put about by politicians who are out to fleece you frm the comfort of a private jet on their way to/from an intergovernmantal meeting where they will agree to set up some non-elected £400k pa jobs to which they will each appoint the other when thrown out of office, as long as they smile nicely and don't say horrid thiongs about each other.

There is no reason at all why taxes should go up.

In fact, in actual terms, the price of most things has reduced inreal terms. Yet taxes are a PERCENTAGE, right? So not only are these percentage protected against inflation, the increase in the percentage is somehow seen as okay ...because "prices rise".

The govt bought lots of people etc when the tax rates were low. They bnought computers and so on. Ciomputers cost half what they used to cost and presumably the cost of admin (which is mostly wghat govt does) has also reduced with using computers. yet the taxes have gone up, partly with inflation of actual prices, partly cos the rates havegone up.

Only person to mention this was J redwood. However, he's a bit leftie: taxes should be cut, and THEN see how to spend the money, and not have everyone sit down and dream up mad ideas on which to spend money and then persudae everyone that somehow paying tax is "fair" or "the right thing to do". The only fair tax rates are 0% and 100%.

And where on earth does this idea of taxing rich people come from, other than weak-minded politicians? I think we should tax poor people. They're the real drain. They need more teaching, more healthcare, more policing. How about using all the clever people for experiments on their brains eh? - after all they've got loads of brains so we can use theirs.

rant most definitely NOT over but tempiorasrily suspended...

 

[Bergman]

Re:Already paid!

Having some trouble with the logic here.

Don't quite see how my paying more tax will reduce global warming or pollution.

Boat Tax - rich people wear shoes so tax shoes or green wellies or horses or offensive ties .

Lots of whining about wash etc but apart from a broken TV not heard of any serious loss or injury from boats going fast, most recent example a motor boat rammed by Dragon so perhaps we tax sails.

Havn't noticed any reduction is motorway speed despite astro price of petrol - so why should paying 3 times price for boat fuel do any good

This really is a strange view. Tax exists to fund Government spending. It is not a form of punishment for being rich, having poor dress sense, being rude to Blair or anything else.

Why do you regard tax as a "good thing"

 

[tony_brighton]

Re:Already paid!

Agree with all you say; I think the original posting wasn't attempting to justify taxes but give an indication of how the bureaucratic mind may develop over the years. Like any bureaucracy, governments exist to legislate and pay for it with taxes. I think the mindset is one of 'an effective government is one which creates lots of legislation'. The reality is that there aren't major problems to be fixed. I'd suggest that the vast amount of VAT I've paid to the government + duty on fuel/purchases + radio licenses more than covers the very limited service I currently get from government bodies.

A couple of points :
Should yachts contribute directly to the running of the coastguard/MCA rather than via direct taxation? (answer : probably not - too adminstratively difficult).

A contribution to light dues from the yachting fraternity would probably be fairer than the current model - but we don't get many things for 'free'!

 

[peterb]

Re:Already paid!

Yachtsmen already contribute to lights and buoyage. Don't assume that all buoys are laid by Trinity House; the majority of buoys used by yachtsmen are laid by harbour authorities, to whom we contribute by harbour dues.

The real problem is that the UK is unusual in charging light dues to commercial shipping. In almost every other country lights are paid for out of general taxation.

 

[Guest]

Re:Already paid!

Hi,

I'm not attempting to justify tax rises. All I am suggesting is that we ought to marshall the facts and prepare the campaign. Everyone apart from Mr Brown can see that there is a big revenue hole openning up for the exchequer. Taxes are beibng tightened up.

As an example. I have sent one of my guys on a course. It is in London so he has to go by train. Despite the fact that the course if paid for by the business, I want him to attend and the business will benefit he will need to pay tax on the expenses he claims as it is a benefit in kind!

Now, if the revenue are getting that hard up - where is there a large pool of well heeled people that you can tax without hurting the core labour vote? They don't pay tax on fuel and don't seem to be contributing to their keep.

How far has the thin end of the wedge been forced already?

Regards


Fred

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

 

[ParaHandy]

Re:Already paid!

This gov has demonstrated time and again it's policy: if something works, keep fiddling until it's broken.....

 

[tcm]

Re:not a benefit in kind

um, you and/or your employee is overpaying tax if the you're being told that travel expenses to/from a course is a benefit in kind. Get new accountants, and/or new auditors, or both.

 

[bigmart]

It seems to me that we forget that we are paying for the Lights & Navaids.

The price of every imported item purchased here that is transported by sea includes a charge to cover the cost of Light Dues. We are part of that buying public & therefore cover our share.

We all know that , if charges are levied on recreational boating, an unreasonable charge will result and we will bear the brunt of an excessive bill. It really annoys me that correspondents to these & other Forums continually raise the subject of Licensing & Charges as if they are inevitable & reasonable.

We, as responsible citizens, must make the point that any Licensing/Charging System is purely a method of victimising a group of individuals who are prepared to fight for our rights.

Oh God it feels good to rant!

 

[Guest]

Bigmart writes

> We, as responsible citizens, must make the point that any Licensing/Charging System is purely a method of victimising a group of individuals who are prepared to fight for our rights.

Which is exactly my point. Nothing I've suggested will seem unreasonable to the "man in the street." After all, the core labour vote generally will not come from yotties and motorboaters.

Regards


Fred

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

 

[bigmart]

Sorry to piss on your firework but I voted Labour.

 

[Guest]

bigmart writes

>Sorry to piss on your firework but I voted Labour.

Which bit of "the core labour vote generally will not come from yotties and motorboaters." are you having difficulty with?

Pissing on fireworks is a bit like peeing into the wind - sometimes you get more back than you bargained for.

Regards


Fred

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

 

[billmacfarlane]

Why shouldn't yachtsmen pay duty on fuel ? I'd go along with that . Why should a leisure pastime benefit from a duty free benefit like diesel ? Fishing boats and farm equipment ? Yep . Yachts and powerboats ? Don't think so .
Buoyage and lights ? We already pay for a lot of buoyage in harbour dues . Some of the buoyage that's layed marks areas we can't use . Why should we pay for that ? Lights ? The standard argument is that it's difficult to collect. Probably true but considering the amount of boats what percentage of them actually use nav lights. Most boats do day passages and an occasional overnight hop.
Boat tax ? Why ? If it's a tax on pollution and I can't really agree that yachts are a major source of pollution , why should they be taxed ? Didn't they try this in the States and quickly dropped it again ?

 

[bedouin]

Really depends on your view of taxation doesn't it?

Tax on fuel used to be used to maintain the roads, National Insurance used to pay for the NHS and pensions and so on - but now successive governments have broken that link and put tax on anything they can get away with.

It is reasonable to tax leisure pursuits to fund any expenditure that it causes, but don't forget that the leisure marine industy must already earn the government lots of money through VAT and taxes on those employed in the industry.

 

[halcyon]

But why is it ok to spend 10's of millions tax payer's on cycle ways, for a leisure pastime that is no more enviromently freindly than a yacht, ok a yacht has a aux engine, then most bikes travel on the boot or roof of a car.

Yet the yacht is seen as a pollutor and ok to tax, the bike as green.

Brian

 

[Viking]

More taxes? are you mad?
Dont encourge the b**t**ds
You dont really believe that any money raised would go towards 'saving the world'
Goverments get to much tax moneies as it is and they waste what they get, free hand outs to make 'themselves' feel good.
Goverments now feel that they have a free hand in your pocket.

'Angry from Ipswich'

 

[kingfisher]

Indirect income

Yachties provide indirect income for hundreds of communities and thousands of jobs, income and wages that are taxed.

What would the Isle of Wight be without the sailing community ? Yep, a rural piece of rock in the channel, inhabited buy a few die-hards, while all the young people left for London.

Obi-Wan
http://sirocco31.tripod.com

 

[Celena]

I cannot see any justification for people who use boats purely for leisure purposes to not to pay the same tax on fuel as I have to on fuel I use to drive to work. The RYA's justification is so disingenuous that I resigned!
I would be more than happy to pay tax on the 5 gallons or so I use each month. I suspect the antis will be those who use 5 gallons an hour!