Passage Plans

[halcyon]

Falmouth has just had delivered a nice blue and yellow MCA patrol boat, operating between Falmouth and the Scillies checking complience with SOLAS regs.

The local TV also stated there are three more else were up the coast!

Brian

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

Re: the other bits to go with the plan...

Brandon, Not blaming you, but debate is good long live debate and thanks for doing the live link.
All I will say is in court the judge will say show me dont tell me! also saying I am an expert and know the route well would no doubt get the response. Mr Brandon the events of x/x/2003 lead me to deduce otherwise.
As far as I know we have no case law so how can the RYA give you informed advice. The RYA are anti legislation and campaign on the banner "Education not legislation" we all agree with that but having read the document no way would I deduce it does not apply to me.
Time will tell, thanks again.
Trevor

 

[trev]

Having spent my entire life at sea, and a Master Mariner since 1973 (Oh - swing that lamp !!) , I'm just waiting for some jobsworth to ask me for a look at my passage plan!!
I must confess to corrected charts and course lines with 'bolt holes ' marked - but surely that's just common sense.
But - will that be enough to satisfy the ever growing cancer of regulation in leisure boating ??

Trev

 

[byron]

<font color=blue>As a Master Mariner don't you just love it when someone just having passed their Day Skipper starts testing your knowledge or explaining to you how it's far better to have the tide with you than against you. Or (as once happened to me) ask me to quickly teach them Celestial Navigation.

http://www.alexander-advertising.co.uk

 

[BrendanS]

Commercial vessels only. They will NOT be doing spot checks on leisure vessels. MCA themselves have assured the RYA that this is the case, and it has been well advertised

 

[BrendanS]

"There is no need to complete forms or write a long, formal plan. Anyone who has completed an RYA practical training course will be competent in passage planning. "

Direct quote from the RYA website on Solas.

People are blowing things out of all proportion. The implications of Solas to the leisure boater are actually minimal, as long as they carry life saving signals sheet, and mount a radar reflector if practicable.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: the other bits to go with the plan...

...but the whole document does not apply! The only regulations applicable to leisure boaters are :

Regulation 19.2.1.7 - Radar Reflectors

All ships shall have, if less than 150 grt and if practicable, a radar reflector or other means, to enable detection by ships navigating by radar at both 9 and 3 GHz..

Regulation 29 - Life Saving Signals


An illustrated table describing the life-saving signals shall be readily available to the officer of the watch on every ship to which this chapter applies. The signals shall be used by ships or persons in distress when communicating with life-saving stations, maritime rescue units and aircraft engaged in Search and Rescue operations.

Regulation 31 - Danger Messages

Masters and Skippers are required to communicate information on navigational dangers to the Coastguard or any other vessels in the vicinity. These include, for example a dangerous derelict or other dangerous obstructions, tropical storms, winds of force 10 or more for which no warning has been received. The form that information is sent is not obligatory and it can be transmitted in plain language or using the International Code of Signals. You can do this by contacting the Coastguard on VHF, or by telephoning them at the earliest opportunity.

Regulation 32 - Danger Messages

This regulation deals with the kind of information required in danger messages. It also has examples of typical danger messages.
The Coastguard are then required to warn other vessels in the area.

Regulation 33 - Distress messages - obligations and procedures

Masters are obliged to respond to distress messages from any source. Ships can be requisitioned by the master of a ship in distress or the Search and Rescue (SAR) authorities.
Note: This regulation basically reinforces the mariner's duty to respond to any distress messages received.

Regulation 34 - Safe navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations.
Voyage planning on all vessels that go to sea. 'Going to sea' is defined as proceeding outside of categorized waters.

"There is no need to complete forms or write a long, formal plan. Anyone who has completed an RYA practical training course will be competent in passage planning." - RYA website

Regulation 35 - Misuse of distress signals
Distress signals only to be used for the proper purpose.

 

[paulineb]

It would be difficult to get a plan of Mr Ribnet Moderator's passage, it sounds like he has his head up it !

Pxx

 

[duncan]

I've watched this run and am begining to see the divergence (I think) -
your last quotes along the lines '"........ competen in passage planning" - great but still have to do it!
My point is driven from the possible need to evidence the fact that you have - not that you could, or where it got you.
Stuck on the Bramble bank claiming you looked at the tides only indicates you are thick, it doesn't prove it - you might, just might not have 'planned'. Having tide tables on board, and a pencil indication on the chart with something like 0.3+1.9=3.2 would prove that you had planned but that you had made an error that, in a boat drawing 2.5, had led to to go aground.
Saying you had considered the weather and listned to the forcast is not the same as a scribbled note of the xxxxhour report from Portland giving SW4 for the next 24 hours.
We all make mistakes but deliberately choosing to ignore the need to consider weather, fuel, tides and boat crew limitations is, under the regulations and where they apply, now considered 'an offense'.
Clearly for pleasure craft it is going to be a case of after the accident/incident but it will happen.
I fully accept your point that you do not need to evidence you planning in any formal way but as you need to have planned why not, as a minimum, have a little page with date, weather, tide, fuel and destination boxes on it to wave if appropriate, from the Bramble bank, at passing boats!

 

[BrendanS]

There are two separate arguements here. You suggest that keeping a simple log is advisable. Yes, it's sensible, but to suggest that everyone does it will simply have the no regulations at any cost camp up in arms immediately.

So, yes it might be sensible, but there is absolutely no requirement for it

 

[duncan]

at the inevitable risk......
I am not suggesting keeping a simple log - I am recomending that you jot down the key elements of your passage plan when undertaking a trip that requires you to have made one; and that the use of a simple template would facilitate that.

 

[trev]

The thing is - if, like me, you are the only 'watchkeeper' on your vessel, you will know where you have been and where you are going. Log books and passage plans are fine for vessels having a Master and several watchkeepers who need to know whats going on. This whole deal smacks of bullsh*t to me !!
If no passage plan is required until after an incident - what was the point of it??
One of the reasons I enjoy leisure boating, despite earning my living from the sea, is the freedom from bureaucracy it has, so far, enjoyed. But it looks like 'they' are determined to interfere.
RYA where are you !!

Trev

 

[BrendanS]

Re: RYA

Trev,

if you follow this link, you'll see Rod Carr's (RYA Chief Exec) response to pretty much that question when I asked it on the RYA forum here recently. In summary, it's international law, and so had to be accepted.. What the RYA claim they did was reduce the impact on smaller boats.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=RYA140103&Number=296084&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=93&part=>here</A>

 

[duncan]

Re: RYA

The view that their Enforcement Department takes is that if a leisure boater is involved in a serious incident, which merits investigation, they will also check that the individual involved has complied with SOLAS.

I rest my case..............

 

[hlb]

Re: RYA

.............And because they dont specify what you have to do for the passage plan any duff judge can find you guilty because of whatever.

<font color=blue> Haydn

 

[BrendanS]

Re: Voyage Planning is Basic Common Sense

Voyage Planning is Basic Common Sense

Their words not mine. Not mention of needing anything written down. They give guidance as to what is required. Read a chart, note the tides, be aware of any dangerous obstacles, have a safe haven, leave notice with someone on shore, fill in and use the CG66 (we're both covered here, can't be in Pathfinder without completing one), Limitations of vessel, Brief crew, etc etc


All basic stuff that would be covered by anyone who went to sea with a Pathfinder event, and I hope would be done by anyone who went to sea full stop. Still no need to write anything down, even though on club events all this is covered and a go/no go decision made on Thursday evening prior to event, and then still covered by the ability to ask members not to take part if crew not up to it. I've done this myself.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mcga.gov.uk/publications/leaflets/Solas.pdf>http://www.mcga.gov.uk/publications/leaflets/Solas.pdf</A>
I rest my case...

If I ever have an incident, I can refer to this document and honestly say that I've understood and qualified on each part, even if I have no written proof. The import of both their and RYA advice is that no written plan is required, and I would use this in court, unless other cases are tried in the meantime, which required me to revise this attitude.

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

Re: Voyage Planning is Basic Common Sense

Brendan,
If I am the Captain of my yacht and I have the plan in my head but nothing written down and on route I get knocked out by the boom. The wife is now promoted to captain but she has not got any plan in her head so she is banged to rights if she calls for help. Bit concerned what do you suggest she does ?
PS she says she will throw me over the side for failing to keep a written log and Plan according to SOLAS Annex 24 - Voyage Planning.
Trevor

 

[BrendanS]

Re: Voyage Planning is Basic Common Sense

Comes under crew briefing. Lets be honest, your wife might have a clue, but the vast majority of people who go out on the boat with me have no idea.

There is no way I can train them in navigation, passage planning, sea safety nor even sensible man over board routines in one ten minute session. What I do is give them the basics, then train them over a period of time.The more time they spend on my boat, the more they learn. The more time I spend with experienced sailors, the more I learn.

You cannot expect newbies to come up to Solas regulations on their first trip. Most of the people I take onboard I think I'm lucky if they can differentiate bewtween water and land on a chart.

It's my problem, not theirs. If you can see a way around this, I'd love to hear about it. In the meantime, I'll take friends out boating, knowing that if I go overboard or have a heart attack, they'll have to find their own way home

 

[hlb]

Re: Voyage Planning is Basic Common Sense

Brendan. What you fail to realise. Is. That the only time this plan comes into action is when you have hit some thing. Some thing has gone wrong. Now I can understand you hitting a Submerged container for instans and would not blame you. But a court, and with passage planning. You should have known that a ship loosing cargo 50 miles away last week, and with tide directions, would have been bound to put them in your area now. So guilty as charged. The point is. You have had an accident. For what ever reason. Both diesel tanks got holes in them. Did you plan for that!! No. So yer Guilty. Was it forseen. Well yes. There both the same age. Now with a car. They dont expect you to be an expert. So have Test certificate. Then if brakes dont work. Not your fault. You have had it tested and serviced. Cant do more.

<font color=blue> Haydn

 

[BrendanS]

Re: Voyage Planning is Basic Common Sense

..But yes I did. Told the crew everything I knew about safety. where the fire extinguishers were, how the life jackets they must wear work, how to work the manual pumps and turn on the automatic pumps, and how the cut off cord works.

The point is, that if something out of the expected happens, as long as you;ve done the sensible things, you won't be prosecuted. I can think of 100+ things that could happen at sea, that I haven't briefed the crew about.Am I worried about this?No, Because as long as I've been sensible, I won't be prosecuted for some silly mistake.

What is all this rubbish about? No one is going to be taken to court for this stuff. People are just scare mongering to add a few posts to their count. Bullshit. MCA and RYA are very consistent, and are advising that leisure boats are not target of these rules, and have mitigated most of the consequences.

Live with it. If you are prosecuted under these new rules, you'd need to have done something really stupid. I really cannot understand what the problem is??