Parachute sea anchor

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Well, i've been out in a F9, and its quite humbling to discover just how much raw power the sea has in those conditions. I will readily admit that it is frightening, and the thought of a F10 or more frankly scares the living daylights out of me.

I think it serves us well, and is indeed beholden upon us, to listen to all view points and then draw our own conclusions.

Personally, this is a subject I want to take very seriously, having blue water ambitions, and will absorb as many differing thoughts as I can.

Here are my observations so far (note: not conclusions!)

The decisions that need to be addressed:

Stern to or bow to:

Bow to seems more 'natural' to me, but faces the risk of submarining
Stern to is possibly more stable in many boats, but exposes the weakness of the cockpit and in particular the washboards to the sea
Rudder damage needs to be considered carefully, avoiding situations where the boat can 'reverse' sharply against its rudder, most likely by falling down a wave face.
Another factor to be considered is sea room, or indeed room to significant sea features. Do you have the space to ride out through the storm, or do you need to at least forereach or indeed work forwards?... features might not just be coastlines, they could be continental shelfs in for example Biscay

Drag device:

A drogue offers a great deal of power, but risks an 'all or nothing' scenario in terms of its drag levels
A JSD offers a more proportional drag level
Both need serious consideration to the direction of the drag... not just in the horizontal plane, eg straight or off the quarter, but also in the vertical plane, ie are they dragging the boat over the wave, or down into it

Deployment:

Possibly the one area where everyone agrees.... massively over specified attachment arrangement, with copious quantities of anti chafe

Recovery:

Likely to be challenging with any device. Some offer a 'trip', but this needs to be used with caution as may defeat the device in unintended ways, plus add potential uneccessary complexity at the time it is least needed. Alternative approaches include reversing the pull on the device by heading back towards it after the 'storm' has abated and thus making recovery easier.... its still potentially a big 'bag of water' that you are trying to lift!

Deployment timing:

A difficult call.... rather like a reef, its often going to be left too late... the later it is the harder to deploy. Run out speed is an issue, and careful prep (and thus probably stowage) is needed to avoid damage to the device itself, the boat or indeed the person deploying it.

I'm sure there is more, but i'm just trying to structure my thinking, so as to choose the option that works best for me and my boat.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Small handkerchief headsail sheeted tight midships, Seabrake towed from the stern cleats using a Y brace.
I will post more detail tomorrow. I keep on getting cut off here, very frustrating.

Does that not just cause the bow to be blown straight off the wind?

 

[VO5]

Does that not just cause the bow to be blown straight off the wind?

It is the case using other types of drogues.

So my answer is a defininite no.

I can tell you because I have the experience. So what I am telling you is the result of my practical experience, and not out of a book.

When you deploy a drogue from the stern there are several requirements to qualify this strategy as efficient.

They are ease of deployment and recovery, self adjusting pull, directional stability.

By deploying the Seabrake and because of its ability to harmonise its pull the stern remains firmly to the sea, so consequently the bow does not wander either, and this provides reliable directional stability, additionally.

The bow wanders if a Jordan is deployed, since the Jordan causes drag, but does not offer directional stability like the Seabrake does.

 

[doris]

This whole thread, which started off very interestingly but seems to have slipped, only talks about drogues but never about the vessels they are attached to.

If the boat involved is an old heavy design then it may be solution 1 but an AWB may need solution 3. A modern, heavy boat,eg. Rustler 42, may be solution 2.

I would be very reluctant to leave my current boat, a 5 year old Dehler 39, to the mercy of the ocean and a drogue. If the conditions are huge then I would expect to an active partner with the boat. Streaming warps or a series drogue yes, a sea anchor off the bow....never. I have been out in an 8 with her and was relaxed. Trying my best to avoid any more.

Different strokes for different boats, to paraphrase a term.

 

[VO5]

Well, i've been out in a F9, and its quite humbling to discover just how much raw power the sea has in those conditions. I will readily admit that it is frightening, and the thought of a F10 or more frankly scares the living daylights out of me.

I think it serves us well, and is indeed beholden upon us, to listen to all view points and then draw our own conclusions.

Personally, this is a subject I want to take very seriously, having blue water ambitions, and will absorb as many differing thoughts as I can.

Here are my observations so far (note: not conclusions!)

The decisions that need to be addressed:

Stern to or bow to:

Bow to seems more 'natural' to me, but faces the risk of submarining
Stern to is possibly more stable in many boats, but exposes the weakness of the cockpit and in particular the washboards to the sea
Rudder damage needs to be considered carefully, avoiding situations where the boat can 'reverse' sharply against its rudder, most likely by falling down a wave face.
Another factor to be considered is sea room, or indeed room to significant sea features. Do you have the space to ride out through the storm, or do you need to at least forereach or indeed work forwards?... features might not just be coastlines, they could be continental shelfs in for example Biscay

Drag device:

A drogue offers a great deal of power, but risks an 'all or nothing' scenario in terms of its drag levels
A JSD offers a more proportional drag level
Both need serious consideration to the direction of the drag... not just in the horizontal plane, eg straight or off the quarter, but also in the vertical plane, ie are they dragging the boat over the wave, or down into it

Deployment:

Possibly the one area where everyone agrees.... massively over specified attachment arrangement, with copious quantities of anti chafe

Recovery:

Likely to be challenging with any device. Some offer a 'trip', but this needs to be used with caution as may defeat the device in unintended ways, plus add potential uneccessary complexity at the time it is least needed. Alternative approaches include reversing the pull on the device by heading back towards it after the 'storm' has abated and thus making recovery easier.... its still potentially a big 'bag of water' that you are trying to lift!

Deployment timing:

A difficult call.... rather like a reef, its often going to be left too late... the later it is the harder to deploy. Run out speed is an issue, and careful prep (and thus probably stowage) is needed to avoid damage to the device itself, the boat or indeed the person deploying it.

I'm sure there is more, but i'm just trying to structure my thinking, so as to choose the option that works best for me and my boat.

When I have time later today I will give you an account of my experience in the tail end of a Hurricane off Cape Hatteras.

You raise some interesting points.

My view is that bow to is a no no except if hove to in flat water, and then only if the water is guaranteed to remain flat.

First because if conditions deteriorate this arrangement has to be undone if you are to run. Then if you are to run it is easier to have the tow and drag in place.

Then the drag device must be such that the boat can go with the sea. The idea of washboards stove in is probably due to the boat being held back at the wrong moment and a freak coming aboard and doing the damage.

This happens if the following sea is not allowed to run underneath the boat, lifting and dropping it, but instead charging it.

There are two elements here. Again they are adjustable pull and directional stability. I have already covered this in my explanation of restraint.

Deployment and recovery must be as simple as possible. Recovering the Seabrake is a doddle because the sheet winch can be used, even when the boat is still roaring along at anything up to say 4 knots.

Deployment timing. As the Seabrake is very easy to deploy and recover, then the time and effort required to do so is not very great.

I will say there is no embarrassment in deploying EARLY.
Even if the deployment actually turns out to be in vain it does not matter does it ?

You just heave it in and carry on....BUT...if you do not act in good time, you may have to suffer the consquences of your dithering later.

If you deploy early you can only be accused of being super prudent.
Surely that is not an insult, is it ?
It is just being careful and responsible.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

lots of truth in that I suspect Doris.

I'm not sure I see the thread as having slipped.

For once, it seems to me like a sensible and interesting discussion of the issues, challenges and options open to us, and i'm quite keen for it to continue!

 

[VO5]

This whole thread, which started off very interestingly but seems to have slipped, only talks about drogues but never about the vessels they are attached to.

If the boat involved is an old heavy design then it may be solution 1 but an AWB may need solution 3. A modern, heavy boat,eg. Rustler 42, may be solution 2.

I would be very reluctant to leave my current boat, a 5 year old Dehler 39, to the mercy of the ocean and a drogue. If the conditions are huge then I would expect to an active partner with the boat. Streaming warps or a series drogue yes, a sea anchor off the bow....never. I have been out in an 8 with her and was relaxed. Trying my best to avoid any more.

Different strokes for different boats, to paraphrase a term.

So you think this is no longer interesting then ?
Well, I'll shut up then and devote my time and effort to more worthwhile projects instead, unless you yourself have the experience and knowledge to contribute more constructively that you are contributing at present by your current comments, I respectfully submit to you.

 

[Kelpie]

Does that not just cause the bow to be blown straight off the wind?

It is the case using other types of drogues.

So my answer is a defininite no.

{snip}

By deploying the Seabrake and because of its ability to harmonise its pull the stern remains firmly to the sea, so consequently the bow does not wander either, and this provides reliable directional stability, additionally.

The bow wanders if a Jordan is deployed, since the Jordan causes drag, but does not offer directional stability like the Seabrake does.

So, 'no' it does not cause the bow to be blown off the wind? But isn't that exactly what you are trying to achieve? Are you trying to achieve a stable stern-into-wind attitude?

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Are you trying to achieve a stable stern-into-wind attitude?

That's my understanding Rob... for me its seems that there is consensus that a stern to approach is the preference (certainly from this thread anyway), and the decision comes down to whether your preference is for a JSD or one of the other drogue options, including the seabrake which VO5 is clearly fond of.

Perhaps this might be debated though for the most modern and lighter weight designs or cats, where a more active approach would be preferable as per the Dehler example above.

 

[doris]

Perhaps this might be debated though for the most modern and lighter weight designs or cats, where a more active approach would be preferable as per the Dehler example above.

The Dehler weighs 8.25 empty and dry so about 9 and a bit tons on the water.
Your Oceanis is probably about the same but with more windage. Both very much with modern u/w shapes.
A huge part of the equation.

 

[BurnitBlue]

My technique is simple and has the advantage of NOT introducing a situation where the cure is worse than the disease.

Simply run off under bare poles at a 30 degree angle to the wind and predominant wave train. The boat is under control and can be immediately tacked to the other side if necessary. The waves taken at a downwind angle are more gentle and much less severe because they are effectively longer.

In my opinion, the greatest danger in deploying parachutes and drogues is that the effective OAL of the boat can be well over ten times more. I once streamed a heck of a lot of rope off the stern. A trawler passed closed to my stern trailing net or something. If his trawl had picked up my "drogue" or worse, his giant propellor picked up a rope it would have ripped the stern off my boat, (I was using everything I had which included anchor rode).

Similarly with a parachute from the bow. There are a lot of whales out there these days and catching one of those beasts in the parachute would introduce a situation which would be difficult to get out of even in benign conditions.

Yes I know its a small risk but an accumilation of small risks added to the risks already present in a storm is what causes non-recoverable accidents and trip in the liferaft.

I say again, this is my technique and I wouldn't advise anyone to follow it. Do what you think is best.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

i've done just that in a 9 to great effect.... but it was only for 3 hours.... and after 3 hours when the storm passed through I was exhausted..... my concern is that it is entirely feasible that mid ocean, a storm could last 2 days or longer. It would be impossible to helm actively for that length of time without a large and skilled crew.

 

[westernman]

When running off under bare poles, I think you need to stream enough stuff from the stern to ensure that you never go too fast - if you exceed hull speed you are likely to broach in a very nasty manner.

My boat will already do 4 knots under bare poles in a F8. So I would guess in a F10 it will be easily trying to 10 knots or more without anything to slow it down.

I also reckon that there is no way to hold its nose head to wind in a F10 either.
Whatever the method, I think it is going to try and veer off. Many boats will do that at anchor at quite low wind speeds.

All IMHO for my boat of course.

 

[BurnitBlue]

When running off under bare poles, I think you need to stream enough stuff from the stern to ensure that you never go too fast - if you exceed hull speed you are likely to broach in a very nasty manner.

I don't believe that is necessariy true. Whitbread boats in the Southern Ocean have a heavy weight spinnaker up for goodness sake. Ask any of them (there must be over a hundred of them by now) if they ever trail warps to slow down. Be prepared for the amazed look and a question about which planet ...

 

[westernman]

I don't believe that is necessariy true. Whitbread boats in the Southern Ocean have a heavy weight spinnaker up for goodness sake. Ask any of them (there must be over a hundred of them by now) if they ever trail warps to slow down. Be prepared for the amazed look and a question about which planet ...

Hmmm. A boat which is trying to exceed hull speed will do one of two things

1) Plane - dinghies and Open 60's do this

2) Create a bigger and bigger bow wave until eventually you dig the bow into it and the stern carries on and round.

Some how I don't see 35 tonnes of pilot cutter doing 1) even if flying a spinnaker.

Also we are talking about severe survival conditions here - not normal racing/sailing winds of up to F8 or so.

 

[BurnitBlue]

i've done just that in a 9 to great effect.... but it was only for 3 hours.... and after 3 hours when the storm passed through I was exhausted

I have no wish to get into an argument, but you have just tripped over my soapbox.

Put simply, a skipper should have the stamina to do the necessary work to get his boat through a storm, they rarely last more than a day anyway.

Take a course of exercise and diet. So many skippers who are fat and flabby set sail with a YM piece of paper and a frig chinking with beer cans and think they have it covered. OK if you are coast hopping but not OK if you go Ocean. Start off in the Gym not in the Chandlers shop. Get fit stay fit.

Soap box cleaned and dusted, anybody want to borrow it?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Hmmm. A boat which is trying to exceed hull speed will do one of two things

1) Plane - dinghies and Open 60's do this.

Michael displacement hulls which exceed their theoretical hull speeds are surfing with the aid of waves. Technically your big gaff could surf until the wave runs under, but would you want it to! The general problem at these speeds is that the rudders become very inefficient and control of the back of the boat is lost. On mono hulls, again generally, the buoyancy of the bow is usually sufficient to prevent her squatting (not shallow water squat) to Davy Jones locker. The big issue at speed is that you can not control the stern and mass of the wave carries the stern round.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Also we are talking about severe survival conditions here - not normal racing/sailing winds of up to F8 or so.

As I said earlier I have no intention of entering into an argument. However, if anyone really believes that a large Parachute tied to the bow will help a boat in survival conditions then he is living in cloud cuckoo land. Chafe alone will destroy the warps on the bridle one by one while using chain leader will effectively be even more dangerous.

Very good thread though, and good to read. In my opinion though, the best survival technique is to be a fit and knowledgeable skipper and use the boat as she is designed and not add a dangerous situation with gadgets. Stastically, the boat will survive, it is the crew that will break down first.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I have no wish to get into an argument, but you have just tripped over my soapbox.

Put simply, a skipper should have the stamina to do the necessary work to get his boat through a storm, they rarely last more than a day anyway.

Take a course of exercise and diet. So many skippers who are fat and flabby set sail with a YM piece of paper and a frig chinking with beer cans and think they have it covered. OK if you are coast hopping but not OK if you go Ocean. Start off in the Gym not in the Chandlers shop. Get fit stay fit.

Soap box cleaned and dusted, anybody want to borrow it?

You quite clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I train 7 days a week for triathlons, run more, cycle more, and swim more in a week than most people do in a year.... This year I am doing the Ironman, a 3.9 miles swim followed by a 112 miles bike ride, and then a full marathon... should be done in around 14hrs..... Just this year I have a number of long distance runs, regular 100 mile rides at an average of over 20mph and swims of 10km under my belt.... I am probably one of the fittest people on this entire forum.

3 hours is more than enough when it gets serious.... not just windy, but serious.

 

[BurnitBlue]

You quite clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

.... I am probably one of the fittest people on this entire forum.

3 hours is more than enough when it gets serious.... not just windy, but serious.

My post was not intended for you alone. I still maintain that a skipper should train to have the stamina to last a day. The right foul weather gear is just as important and is a major factor in fatigue. This argument can go on for ages if all the variables are dissected but I don't have the time and must do some work. I will just close by repeating that a well designed boat will survive conditions better than the crew if the boat is not handicapped with gadgets.

I used to play Tennis and I was always amazed at the lack of stamina of many folk who couldn't play to the end of a match without slowly sinking to their knees. Running speed, strength, and stamina are different things. Stamina is what is needed on a boat.