Overtaking the p?ss

[Triassic]

The difference between you and me Flaming is that you are an out and out racer, where I simply race because it's a great way of enjoying my sailing. What you are in effect saying in this situation is that your race time is more important than the other boats, and that has a touch of arrogance about it. My submission is that both skippers could have looked at the situation as a set of developing circumstances that through neither of their's fault has the potential to impact on them both (their respective race courses in their separate races just happened to overlap) so how can they deal with it with the minimum of damage to them both. I just think a minor course alteration by both boats early on and a friendly wave of acknowledgement as they passed would have had negligible impact on either of their races and left a whole lot better aftertaste....

 

[lw395]

The difference between you and me Flaming is that you are an out and out racer, where I simply race because it's a great way of enjoying my sailing. What you are in effect saying in this situation is that your race time is more important than the other boats, and that has a touch of arrogance about it. ....

It's a bit like colregs.
If you are sharing a course with proper racers who sail to the rules you know where you stand.
If people start making up their own codes of 'good manners' and 'we don't use those rules', it's anarchy.

I've sailed at various levels (been in the middle of some mediocre fleets, the front of few club fleets and the back of some serious fleets!), I've often noticed that the fleets with the highest standard of rule observance have the least aggravation.

 

[Triassic]

It's a bit like colregs.
If you are sharing a course with proper racers who sail to the rules you know where you stand.
If people start making up their own codes of 'good manners' and 'we don't use those rules', it's anarchy.

I'm not advocating that once two boats are in potential conflict they do anything other than follow the rules, as you say any deviation from them has the potential to introduce confusion. I'm just saying that a little thought beforehand avoids the potential conflict in the first place.

As an example I was racing just off Plymouth a couple of weeks ago and engaged in a tack for tack exchange with another trimaran. Whilst we were both on port tack our courses were clearly going to cross with a cruising yacht leaving the harbour on starboard. Whilst still several hundred yards away the skipper of this yacht gave us a wave and dropped his heading a few degrees so he was clearly going to pass well astern of us. He didn't have to do that, we were both prepared to stand off if we had to, but the need to do so never arose and we were both grateful for his actions. Now I appreciate he wasn't racing, however the principal is the same. He considered the developing situation and took an early decision to make it a non-event. In my mind that's just good seamanship.

 

[lw395]

I'm not advocating that once two boats are in potential conflict they do anything other than follow the rules, as you say any deviation from them has the potential to introduce confusion. I'm just saying that a little thought beforehand avoids the potential conflict in the first place.

As an example I was racing just off Plymouth a couple of weeks ago and engaged in a tack for tack exchange with another trimaran. Whilst we were both on port tack our courses were clearly going to cross with a cruising yacht leaving the harbour on starboard. Whilst still several hundred yards away the skipper of this yacht gave us a wave and dropped his heading a few degrees so he was clearly going to pass well astern of us. He didn't have to do that, we were both prepared to stand off if we had to, but the need to do so never arose and we were both grateful for his actions. Now I appreciate he wasn't racing, however the principal is the same. He considered the developing situation and took an early decision to make it a non-event. In my mind that's just good seamanship.

It's also a good racing tactic to understand that the racing boat will act to his best advantage and work around that. So, if you can't prevent him going above you, go low early so his wind shadow is less.
A lot of races are won by picking the best course through the civilians...
Rather than fight too hard for the best route, get a clear path on the second best.
It's all part of racing in busy areas, part of what makes it more interesting than racing miles offshore where you only have your own fleet to consider, or on some inland pond with no other traffic.

 

[flaming]

The difference between you and me Flaming is that you are an out and out racer, where I simply race because it's a great way of enjoying my sailing. What you are in effect saying in this situation is that your race time is more important than the other boats, and that has a touch of arrogance about it.

The whole point of racing is to find out who is faster, so yes when I encounter another racer my view is that my race time is more important than his! Naturally his view is that his time is more important than mine. When those views become at odds with one another we have the RRS to determine who has to yield, which is of course entirely what happened in the OP. That isn't arrogance, that's why you're in a race! You seem to be advocating a sort of "after you" culture. I suspect that this is possibly due to the fact you are racing multis which would be far less affected by the windshadow of another boat they were overtaking, and have (in general) larger deltas between places than IRC of NHC racing. In cruiser/racers windshadow can easily cost you 10 seconds, and that could cost you the race. There is no way that I would line up a pass as the fast boat in the OP's example without either going over the top or a long way below, to do anything else is going to cost me way too much.

My submission is that both skippers could have looked at the situation as a set of developing circumstances that through neither of their's fault has the potential to impact on them both (their respective race courses in their separate races just happened to overlap) so how can they deal with it with the minimum of damage to them both.

The only debate here is really if the slower boat's actions benefited the slower boat or not. My suspicion is that lpdsn was correct and it actually wound up costing them time, but that's the skipper's call.

Brutally speaking, if I'm doing well in my race I don't care at all about minimizing the damage to the other boat. That is entirely his lookout If he's lined up a pass just to windward of me then he's failed in his task of optimizing his course to take into account all obstacles. If I'm uncompetitive, then sure I wouldn't luff a fast boat in another class, or drive over the top of a class leader in a slower class if I can avoid it but assuming I'm in the hunt in my race then if I deem it a better bet to luff or go over the top of you, then that is what I'll do.

But of course if you decide to defend I won't complain, that's the game.

 

[Keen_Ed]

Mm

Earlier this year both boats 37 ft approx on starboard reach along the shore south of inchmarnock Lochfyne it's a clean shore at this point Leading boat protects their wind to stop overtaking boat taking weather (shore) side after several tries the overtaking boat pushes through and then immediately calls for water.

Suspect legal but is it fair sailing

Thoughts please!

Late to this. Not legal. Breach of 19.2.c.

 

[scottie]

Mm

Late to this. Not legal. Breach of 19.2.c.

Yes as post 4

 

[scottie]

While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b). While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.

But does a call for water over rule everything at the time ?

 

[Keen_Ed]

Only a hail for room to tack ( and the "you tack" response) has any validity in the rules. There are no other required hails

However, 14 and 2 apply. If inside bears away, you have to avoid contact. Also, IMHO deliberately sailing people up the beach isn't sporting (2). Bear away, hail protest and break out the flag.

 

[lw395]

AIUI, once the overlap is established, the outside boat must give room.
If they think the overlap should not have been taken, their only remedy is to protest.

 

[temptress]

IMO you are either Racing or you are not. Racing is competition you are tying to win or do as well as you can - otherwise what is the point? I have raced at many levels and find I agree with Flaming's position here. The inside boat did nothing wrong and used the rules to his advantage - that is racing. if that is not for you don't race or keep out of the way.

When meeting boats not racing - then planning, Colregs and politeness come into play - IMO the best bet when racing is avoid others not racing. BUT when race boats meet may the best one win - regardless if they are in the sae race or not. Actions are always dictated by what is best for me in my race.

 

[Judders]

One assumes that the reason we are all up the beach is due to a tidal benefit? Is that right?

In which case, the overtaking boat was never going to go low and fast.

Racing in the Solent, avoiding getting into scrapes and dirty air from other classes is a massive factor but wherever you are, if you're in a 5 knot club racer and the fast boat wants to roll you he is going to roll you so your best plan is to make it an easy and quick progression so you suffer as little as possible.

One thing that isn't and can not really be dictated by the rules is that everyone has a threshold as to how shallow they will go. I recently did a regatta where the owner wanted to tack on three meters over a fairly even and gently shelving bottom. Frustrating perhaps but we all have our limit. If I had been to windward on my own boat and he'd called water he would have got a a stiff look but would I have given him water? It probably would have depended on my blood sugar levels...

 

[scottie]

One assumes that the reason we are all up the beach is due to a tidal benefit? Is that right?

In which case, the overtaking boat was never going to go low and fast.

Racing in the Solent, avoiding getting into scrapes and dirty air from other classes is a massive factor but wherever you are, if you're in a 5 knot club racer and the fast boat wants to roll you he is going to roll you so your best plan is to make it an easy and quick progression so you suffer as little as possible.

One thing that isn't and can not really be dictated by the rules is that everyone has a threshold as to how shallow they will go. I recently did a regatta where the owner wanted to tack on three meters over a fairly even and gently shelving bottom. Frustrating perhaps but we all have our limit. If I had been to windward on my own boat and he'd called water he would have got a a stiff look but would I have given him water? It probably would have depended on my blood sugar levels...

Have a look at inchmarnock Lochfyne on a chart (sorry I have not grasped the technique of including one) plenty of water close in shore
55 47 n
5 9. W

 

[awol]

Have a look at inchmarnock Lochfyne on a chart (sorry I have not grasped the technique of including one) plenty of water close in shore
59 47 n
5 9. W

Hmmm, about 65nm north of Cape Wrath - looks like there was plenty of water.

 

[scottie]

Hmmm, about 65nm north of Cape Wrath - looks like there was plenty of water.

Told you I was no good at transferring info should read 55 47n 5 9 w

 

[Rick James]

View attachment 53142
Somewhere about here then