Overlapping headsails and small main

[geem]

Repeated

 

[Buck Turgidson]

The boat in question is the Dufour 2800 shown in another post.The Mai is already quite small so I would be looking to replacethe140% Genoa this will detract for off wind sailing but save on arm pulling

have you sailed the boat?

 

[Wansworth]

From my experience and discussions with sailmakers, once you have reefed a third of the sail away, you are on the limit of any reasonable sail performance. Even with a foam luff.
Upwind, we never reef our Genoa. We hang onto it until 20kts apparent then furl it away and deploy the smaller sail on the inner furler. No change in boat speed but we pitch less, heel less and point higher. As wind speed continues to increase we heel more, boat speed increases and we point higher still as the small sail gets into the groove

But what about an efficient 100% or110% Genoa to replace probably a rather baggy40 year old sail

 

[Wansworth]

have you sailed the boat?

No this all supposition based on my last boat that had a 135% overlapping Genoa 5hat was a pain to tack

 

[Buck Turgidson]

No this all supposition based on my last boat that had a 135% overlapping Genoa 5hat was a pain to tack

D2800s have a pretty good sailing reputation as far as I can tell. I think you are looking for excuses again my friend. Why not buy it, sail it and then decide what needs changing? ;-)

 

[johnalison]

One of my '70s boats was Mystere 26 which was typical of the rig mentioned but didn't suffer too much from having pinched ends, though it did have a short waterline. We used to carry 4 headsails which was character-forming, but even a furler wouldn't have been a complete answer. What made the change to modern rigs wasn't just furling jibs but also much easier reefing for the main, making a fractional rig practical for short-handed sailing. My current boat has 19/20 rig and a 110% headsail, which being laminate and padded luff covers all the winds I am likely to meet. I don't think there is a lot you can do about older rigs, though slab reefing and furling jib may help, though most will want at least two jibs, when most will want to make a choice of jib before setting out.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

One of my '70s boats was Mystere 26 which was typical of the rig mentioned but didn't suffer too much from having pinched ends, though it did have a short waterline. We used to carry 4 headsails which was character-forming, but even a furler wouldn't have been a complete answer. What made the change to modern rigs wasn't just furling jibs but also much easier reefing for the main, making a fractional rig practical for short-handed sailing. My current boat has 19/20 rig and a 110% headsail, which being laminate and padded luff covers all the winds I am likely to meet. I don't think there is a lot you can do about older rigs, though slab reefing and furling jib may help, though most will want at least two jibs, when most will want to make a choice of jib before setting out.

I think asymmetric plus smaller Genoa/Jib is probably the way to go these days.

 

[Wansworth]

D2800s have a pretty good sailing reputation as far as I can tell. I think you are looking for excuses again my friend. Why not buy it, sail it and then decide what needs changing? ;-)

We are just having a chat on the problem of overlapping genoas of which Ihad a negative experience……..Unfortunatly boat buying is not number one on my agenda with newly unemployed daughter to sort out or at least have spare cash to assist her ,life gets in the way

 

[01_Anna]

The boat in question is the Dufour 2800 shown in another post.The Mai is already quite small so I would be looking to replacethe140% Genoa this will detract for off wind sailing but save on arm pulling

I do know the boat... But when did you actually sail anything for the last time?
If it is not headlining, then it is the wrong size main. Nevermind, build on the 29th of February, wide sidecks etc. etc. boat is waiting out there.... Genuinely wishing you Good luck!

 

[Wansworth]

I do know the boat... But when did you actually sail anything for the last time?
If it is not headlining, then it is the wrong size main. Nevermind, build on the 29th of February, wide sidecks etc. etc. boat is waiting out there.... Genuinely wishing you Good luck!

About four years ago……how did you like the Dufour out of interest,thanks for your comments……asMrMicawbersaid something will turn up!

 

[01_Anna]

"About four years ago……how did you like the Dufour out of interest,thanks for your comments……asMrMicawbersaid something will turn up!"
I do like quite well actually. It is a solid, traditional boat, if you like this sort of design, then it is great.
Completely different to my own boat, but but you could hardly compare more dissimilar designs.
If you genuinely look for a cheap/free boat, join some relevant facebook groups, i.e.yachtbreakers and similar, they constantly advertise boats which are either absolutely free, or for available for a small fee.
Yes, the caveat is, that they have to be moved at a short notice, but you could not get better than free. Transport it home (to Spain?) and you are set. Or there might be a Spanish version of the same, worth a look, perhaps?

 

[bedouin]

I suppose furling away the Genoa to say 100% and see how it sails over a period before major expense will be the path,the mainsail cannot be altered without a new boom for a start.

Unfortunately you will probably find that unsatisfactory - not many sails will set well when furled down from 150% to 100%. Plus when furling you will be reducing the luff length too so getting a sail shape that is in every way inferior to a purpose made 100%

 

[Wansworth]

Unfortunately you will probably find that unsatisfactory - not many sails will set well when furled down from 150% to 100%. Plus when furling you will be reducing the luff length too so getting a sail shape that is in every way inferior to a purpose made 100%

Yes that is the problem

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Yes that is the problem

The big genny is a pain in the butt. Therefore, if you buy this, just take the plunge. 2nd hand if you can, just in case, but it can hardly be worse, you can bet on an improvement.

 

[Wansworth]

"About four years ago……how did you like the Dufour out of interest,thanks for your comments……asMrMicawbersaid something will turn up!"
I do like quite well actually. It is a solid, traditional boat, if you like this sort of design, then it is great.
Completely different to my own boat, but but you could hardly compare more dissimilar designs.
If you genuinely look for a cheap/free boat, join some relevant facebook groups, i.e.yachtbreakers and similar, they constantly advertise boats which are either absolutely free, or for available for a small fee.
Yes, the caveat is, that they have to be moved at a short notice, but you could not get better than free. Transport it home (to Spain?) and you are set. Or there might be a Spanish version of the same, worth a look, perhaps?

Probably in other more wealthy countries bots maybe cheaper given away but not in Galiciaand anyway I don’t want a project I have had my share of grp dust

 

[Wansworth]

The big genny is a pain in the butt. Therefore, if you buy this, just take the plunge. 2nd hand if you can, just in case, but it can hardly be worse, you can bet on an improvement.

There are several sail lofts near Vigo that probably will have second hand sails and chatting with them will throw up an answer I am sure……but all this is hyperthetical

 

[Minerva]

Exactly the problem with my project boat. Although the design was not influenced by racing it originally had a large mainsail and working jib with the option of a genoa. Of course this was before furling jibs were common and expectation was that you would have 3 headsails and a storm jib to be used as appropriate. Along came furlers and owners (encouraged by sailmakers) replaced the 3 headsails with an overlapping genoa. I went the same route with Tranona which was a smaller version of my current boat, but in reality almost always sailed with 3 rolls in and had the sail modified with a foam luff so that the 3 roll set well. Interesting in a recent conversation with the son of the original owner he said his father rarely used the No1 and the No2 was the best sail for general use.

Fast forward 30 years and my GH came with a huge135% or so genoa (and Lewmar 43s to tame it). Other GH owners have had the same issue and would prefer a smaller sail except that light airs performance is already poor (too much weight and not enough overall sail area). So my solution (worked out in conjunction with Kemps) is a twin headsail rig. Fortunately there is already a short bowsprit with a masthead stay and the genoa is on a Furlex to the stemhead. The plan is to move this stay about 30cm down from the masthead to give enough separation for the fitment of a furler on the outer forestay. The genoa will be recut to go on the new furler and a new 106% high cut clew sail on the stemhead. This will be the working sail and much the same area as the No 2 on the original sailplan.. The genoa will be used for light airs and offwind. The other changes are to the mainsail which has greater roach so a bit more sail area and rather than full battens a Tides Marine track system will be fitted. Adding single line reefing and a stackpack with lazyjacks. All brought back to the cockpit.

This is all happening at the moment. The new furler arrived on Thursday and I have started fitting the hardware. Mainsail is made and new headsail is on order but actual detail design will come when the furlers are in the new position. The Tides track is on order from the US and due in about 2 weeks. Plan is to have it all finished by the end of June.

Does not help the OP if he is going to buy an old boat that is headsail driven with a limited budget. This little lot is costing well over half of what I paid for the boat!

I’m interested to hear what your experience with the Tides marine track is like once you’ve had the chance to play with it a bit!

 

[Tranona]

I tried the sample track at the Tides office which conveniently is about 1 mile from where I live. That plus the positive reports from 2 local sailmakers and a rigger convinced me it was the way to go. When I was thinking about it I opened a thread on here and nothing but positive comments from those who have used it except one from S America who had problems with the material breaking up from UV after over 10 years. Apparently the material has been changed since then to a more UV resistant type.

 

[Concerto]

The Twister is one of the boats Tranona describes. Large Genoa for drive and small main for trim. The previous owner on my boat re-rigged with a meter taller mast to a sail plan described as the "Med Rig". My Gen is no bigger than the large IOR Genoa specified on the original sail plan but my main is bigger. 20% more area than the original and it shows. I need to reef down to the original size in anything over 10kts true for the boat to balance or I let out the main until its almost all backwinded at the luff, which balances the sail but provides almost no extra drive.

When it's time for a new main I will have one made to the original sail area but even this will mean it's a taller aspect ratio so the centre of pressure will be higher.

Moral of the story is really, don't mess with original sail plans without some serious analysis first.

I remember the Twister Helix. She was built for David Atlee, a relative of the former prime minister, and had Holman design a special ¾ rig as he believed a masthead rig was not as efficient as a ¾. Holman's earlier designs like the Stella were all ¾ rigged, but he followed racing fashion of the masthead for the Twister.

 

[Bobc]

I much prefer the big genoa/smaller main rig to the small jib/huge barn-door main rig.

The former is more balanced and handles better, and because most of the power is lower down and is also in the genoa, you can sail without the main in a strong breeze, which means no leaving the cockpit and you can reef it quickly and easily.