Over, Out and Over and Out

Moose

Moose

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West Sussex, Boat in Chichester
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Why oh Why oh Why???
Do we all have to say "Over" at the end of a transmission and "Out" (I couldn't put the two words together or some fool would have said "Your not meant to say over and out!")
I work in aviation and you would be laughed at if you came into Heathrow and said "Over" at the end of every transmission, it is unnecessary chatter in an overloaded ATC system, so should it not be the same in boating after all how many times do you here a Ferry or QHM saying "Over" or "Out" In the overloaded Solent CG area saying "Over" or "Out" and especially "over and out" should be banned.
All IMHO
I'm now off to the tailors to pick up my new (I burnt out the old one) flame proof suit/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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El Alce
 
The words 'over' at the end of what you are saying show that you are waiting for a response. The word 'out' means that you have finished what you were saying and do not require a response. If nobody said 'over' you would not know if they had finished what they were saying, or whether they were expecting a response. IMHO you do not need to say 'over and out' at the conclusion of your message, just 'out'. that is sufficient to show you do not require a response.

I hope this makes sense, and that you have not been butting into too many conversations before they say 'over' /forums/images/icons/wink.gif or replying after thet have said 'out'. Mind you with some of the nonsense I have heard, there seems to be a severe lack of radio use training taking place, these people without the proper training or a licence should be fined severely for breaking the law, and have their radios confiscated immediately.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
I KNOW THAT, but it is usually blindingly obvious when a transmission has finished.
" Mr Grumpy this is Yacht Mr Happy, Channel 77?"
"Yacht Mr Happy this if Mr Grumpy going 77"

compared to
"Mr Grumpy this is Yacht Mr Happy, Channel 77 OVER"
"Yacht Mr Happy this is Mr Grumpy going 77 Mr Grumpy OUT"
=22.22% more radio traffic when a conversation uses Over and Out
I bet all in the Solent would like to hear just 3/4's of the chatter that goes on at the moment!!
THIS IS MOOSE, OUT!!


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El Alce
 
Moose, with all those antennae on your head you must be right.

"Ah, breaker one-nine, this here's the Rubber Duck. You gotta copy on me, Pig Pen, c'mon? Ah, yeah, 10-4, Pig Pen, fer shure, fer shure. By golly, it's clean clear to Flag Town, c'mon. Yeah, that's a big 10-4 there, Pig Pen, yeah, we definitely got the front door, good buddy. Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a convoy... "

I have no idea why "over" and "out" are used (and worse taught) and think that it all sounds pretty foolish and amateurish, especially to someone used to professional radio environments. If the cber's song of all time can get by without them, so should we be able to.

It is normally very easy to manage a radio conversation so they are redundant. "Over" seems especially redundant to me as a pause in the transmission of the same length it would take to say "over" is normally indication enough that it is to go over without having to say so. In the very rare occasion where it may not be clear, I refuse to comply and give a "go ahead" instead.

Similarly when the message is completed and there is nothing else to say, it is all pretty obvious.

"We gone, bye bye good buddy", 73 and 88, over and out, closing down and going thataway

John

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You see with the use of 'over' and 'out' used properly, then there is no need to 'wonder' if the conversation is finished or not, or to have to wait for a pause to guess. Simple really rather than all this unprofessional uncertainty that is about /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
What you have stated is not the proper language to be used via a VHF, I think it would be best if you kept to your CB radio, or did a refresher course at a recognised centre /forums/images/icons/wink.gif As a fully qualified radio operator I would not have a clue what you were waffling on about. Discipline is required on the airways to maintain a proper and uniform way of communicating, this is very important for the safety of lives at sea. I think the 'cowboys' who make up their own 'speak' should be rounded up by the sheriff and locked up in the county jail until they agree to undergo proper training.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
"Ah, breaker, Happy1, this here's the MainlySteam. And, you wanna back off them mooses? "

"Yeah, 10-4, 'bout five mile or so."

"Ten, roger. Them mooses is gettin' in-tense up here." (apologies to C W McAll)

See, it works, even in the most unprofessional of radio environments.

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Happy1

I see we hit the send button at the same time there. Apologies, in case of misunderstanding my message was not meant as a windup, just as a fool around example. I have worked in professional radio environments (including air traffic management, Moose, on the ground side) and I do find the protocols taught for marine VHF strange and cumbersome.

John


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I just thought it was a bit quiet, and was doing some 'Moose' hunting /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Anyway at least you two can communicate with your CB radios, is it something to do with being on American boats? /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Hi Happy1, thanks for taking the unfortunate overlap of my message with yours in good heart, I accidently looked a bit provocative.

I would be interested how professional mariners handle radio over there. I have been in air traffic control centres (both civilian and military) in quite a number of countries, including Europe, and it all works just as Moose says. It is very similar in professional maritime here in NZ and I would have assumed the same over there. For example:

Port control giving pilot boarding instructions to ship -

PORT: Ladder port side, 2 meters, 6 knots please.
SHIP: Ladder port side 6 knots.
PORT: Thank you Captain

Nothing else.

Similarly for tug and pilot working together berthing a ship -

PILOT: Tug1 small push please
TUG1: Aye, small push
PILOT: Tug2 come round port aft clear
TUG2: Round port aft clear
PILOT: Thanks, all finished see you at 1500

Nothing else

Another example is the passenger ferries operating across Cook Strait are required by regulation to give trip (voyage) reports. Sometimes they will call, wait for an acknowledgement, and then give their report, but frequently in a gap of transmissions on Channel 16 you will hear them just come straight in with no call, just -

FERRY: Wellington Maritime, Ferry1, one departure TR, ETA 1535, 355 POB
WELLINGTON MARITIME: Ferry1, ETA 1535, 355 POB, thank you.
or sometimes just "Ferry1, all copied".

I would assume is very similar in Europe, and would appreciate any comment if that is so.

John

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I work as a pilot in the marine environment (ship's pilot) and find that when working with multinationals, whos use of English is sometimes sketchy, the use of 'over' at the end of a transmission is definately a neccessity. It also stops everyone talking at once. I don't use 'out' though - usually just say which channel we are standing by on.
When talking to other coleagues we just seem to sense when transmission has ended so 'over ' isn't always used.

<hr width=100% size=1>Trev
 
Hi Trevor, that is interesting. From what I have observed, it gets much the same here for vessels with poor English, especially with some of the big foreign fishing vessels who have less qualified crews - certainly getting the message across gets very protracted at times. In those events I quite agree that "over" can be useful, as can "ok?"

I have an aquaintance who works as a quality control person on the foreign fishing vessels landing their catch in NZ. I don't think he knew what a fish looked like before then - his qualifications that got him the job were that he spoke Russian and he had sailed a yacht around the Pacific, including Siberia in winter.

I would have thought that the way some of the Scottish forumites gabber away on here that sometimes "over" would be the only word one could understand!

John

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I have to say that, even when working our local coast radio station, I seldom use (and often dont hear others use) over or out, unless conditions are poor and there is scope fo misunderstanding. Having said that I dont often use the radio (I suspect I only used it about two or three times last season).

What I have noticed a certain amount ( and I'm guilty as well) is to the use of a double click of the PTT to signify 'out'. Maybe there are too many PPL pilots in the area ...

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Having flown for Aunty Betty in my past (not pointy jets just Herky birds) radio procedure and VHF traffic rules are clear. If you have poor reception then the use of Over and Out are of benefit. I was always taught that "Over and Out" is rude - "Over" means I have finished speaking, your turn. "Out" means I have finished speaking period. So "over and Out" means I have finished speaking, your turn and I do not want to talk to you. Now this might possibly be a raggies comment, (not anti saily boat I spent last night on a sail boat we had to drink all the wine on board as their fridge was broke HeHe).

So as assumed grown ups and with good reception then "Over" and "Out" are not required and are used mainly by pedantic old men trying to look big IMHO.

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agree with not using over and out in some situations to friends and close by communication work but..

for those solent raggies & non trained sunday power boaters who know nothing and will not educate themselves, if they hear over and out they might, just might learn that you let go of the transmit button when they finish and say over or out.

As always its the non trained which are the problem.


Mayday Mayday etc etc my position is 3 miles south of Selsey Bill.................. (no over or out)


what the person continues to think he has transmit is......

and I have run out of Milk, Tea and Drinking water OUT.

Its a question of, if working closely with a team you know you can understand that the conversation and the breaks you are expecting but with a stranger and new situation it becomes less obvious because you may not know the FULL content of the communication.



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boating-ads.co.uk> Boating Website</A>
 
Like Broads girl I learnt my Voice Procedure in the military (but the Brown jobs) - the only time we were allowed to not use Over or Out was when we were engineering in a point to point Radio Relay link. Due to potentially lethal effects of any confusion, overtalking and the large volumes of traffic during "contact" broadcast messages were very formal. Having had this drummed in to me I still tend to use them.

I agree with those above in good conditions/ quiet traffic times there is no need for them - but in IMHO for Urgency calls and poor conditions they are essential.

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What i don't understand is why so many of you are still on their keyboards at such ungodly hours like;
Mainlysteam = 1.46 am
Trev = 4.19 am
ccscott49 = 4.54 am
Mainlysteam = 5.23 am
Don't you have bed with sexy swmbo's in them to go to/forums/images/icons/wink.gif???????????

Regarding the topic on the post, heres my pennies worth,
Being very new to vhf i find that the use of 'over' or 'out' is very important so as i DO NOT butt in before the person transmitting has finished, and as tripleace said, if anyone call in a Mayday then the use of 'over' at the end means the CG can give an immediate reply, instead of wondering if they have finished talking or have lost transmission...

Cheers..

Alistair,.....



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.hamptonandmcmurray.co.uk>Hampton and McMurray</A>

Petrol Rules..
 
Nice to see some ex forces like myself on here, seems like some of this lot could do with a short spell in a diciplined force to sort them out /forums/images/icons/wink.gif No wonder the airwaves are hectic with everyone doing there own thing. The training given is attempting to bring it all up to a certain standard, this seems to be a total waste of time when civvies just do what they want. Regulations are there to be obeyed and the training to assist the understanding of that, what if we all starting making up our own collision regulations because we thought they were easier, or suited us better? What a load of nonsense, jail the lot of them or sieze their radios at the minimum.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Hi Alistair - easy answer for me. I am currently 13 hours of time zones around the other side of the world. However, like you, I do worry about the others! I did for a while think they just stayed up for me, but have lately come to think that might not be so!

John

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