Ouzo report - can you "buy" safety?

Koeketiene

Koeketiene

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Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that the main beneficiaries of the Ouzo report will be the swindleries.

All the mags seem to urge us on "buy this, buy that,... and you'll be OK".
You need an EPIRB, DSC VHF, stacks of flares, new nav lights, state of the art liferaft,... quite a shopping list.

However, what seems to have been in short supply in the Ouzo case (on both sides) seems to have been common sense.
The PoB is huge, a floating block of flats - even if she did change course in the last 5 minutes - why on Earth would any-one let her get that close??
Five minutes is not a lot of time, but still enough to get out of the way. Being stand on is all very well, but if the other ship hasn't seen you (as turned out to be the case here) it does you no good at all.

Instead of rushing to the swindlery, chequebook in hand, to buy a security blanket; some people would be better off investing in some training.
My 10 year old can set off a flare - can you?
My 16 year old can plot a CPA - can you?

It's not infallible, but first and foremost I trust a nice bit of anti-collision software - I keep it between my ears.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

I'm not sure it was that simple.....

The inference was that PoB turned towards them.... and they didn't know, or couldn't tell if she was still turning or set on a new course, hence a difficult decision to make about whether to turn to port or starboard..... and hence the importance of the radar reflector such that PoB would have been aware of their presence.... at least thats the way I read it...

Calculated CPAs are next to useless if a vessel is changing direction or speed.... in fact, they are useless.... they mean nothing..... flares, a different matter.... a white collision flare may have helped...
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

an ais will alert any ship over 300 tons to any small vessel with one as to its position, and aid shoreside in plotting your position ..... and allow the memsahib to see where you are at any time /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
an ais will alert any ship over 300 tons to any small vessel with one as to its position

[/ QUOTE ] only if you buy an active one and can afford the power to keep it running all the time. Personally reckon a 10 million candlepower torch is a more useful aid. Its also a very useful aid if someone goes swimming accidently!
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]

Calculated CPAs are next to useless if a vessel is changing direction or speed.... in fact, they are useless.... they mean nothing.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Neil,

Bollocks

viz_hp_pic_26.jpg


I was always taught to plot a CPA over at least 2 minutes - enough time to see if your "target" is turning (if you keep a constant course). And, ideally, to plot it twice (that should give you an indication of her speed).
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

Good use of artwork to reinforce the written word.
Staying out of the argument though.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

well - the question is in the header

you are undoubtedly correct in recommending a whopping great searchlight ....... even a small one would do if pointed in the right direction at the right time

can you buy safety - no, not guaranteed safety - but yes ........ one can enhance ones safety massively for a small to moderate outlay /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

One piece of advice that stuck that I ever got from my skipper was: you see something that size, RUN AWAY!.

He told me that at 03:00 in a force 4/5 with medium swell, plenty of visability in the middle of the channel when we had over two miles to go before we even had a chance of crossing his path. I took that advice then and I do now.

Don't want to be where they were, don't want to detract from any suggested kit, don't want to put anybody down.

When I'm scared of doing damage, I'm glad of belt+braces+spare piece of string.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

A Radar doesn't tell you if a target is turning unless you plot it more than twice...... and then it only tells you that she has been turning, and not whether the turn has completed or continues, hence CPA calcs become rather meaningless.... and you are into the realms of intelligent interpretation, or IMHO better still, ch16 and a search light on your sails....
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

Maybe a bit off thread, but in the middle of the night with a fresh breeze, how often do you look behind you? You might be alone and have something else to concentrate on - all be it say an over-powered rig, or a cup of tea, or a fishing boat ahead, - it is very easy to lose concentration on what is behind for 5 to 10 minutes. They may not have seen the PoB till it was on top of them.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

And could you ban 'photocromic glasses' and 'removal of red light filter' from the decks of large vessels at night?
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
an ais will alert any ship over 300 tons to any small vessel with one as to its position

[/ QUOTE ]

Save your money - From the MAIB investigation:

==================================
2.6.6 AIS
AIS is being carried by an increasing number of yachts, partly to assist in their being more “visible”. Had Ouzo carried AIS it would have made no difference to the outcome as AIS information was not displayed on the radar of Pride of Bilbao. This situation should improve as AIS is being integrated into more ships’ systems in the future.
==================================

If anyone hasn't already done so, the report really is worth reading - not as chapter and verse about what may or may not have happened to Ouzo, but as a general discussion about the problems of big ship vs little yacht.

here

Andy
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

It is easy to criticise - but bloody difficult to work out which way to go to avoid a ship that is turning.

It sounds horrific how long they were possibly drifting in the channel with no hope of rescue. One thing that I have mentally filed from this and the keel loss case is to have the waterproof VHF and /or mobile phone tied in pocket for night sails etc. Might not help in all situations but would in some.
Did this when going for first singlehanded sail last month.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

I agree thats a possibility and I think that there is another aspect. If you plot back on the chartlet in the report (ratio of speeds about 4-1) then you can get a feel for what the bearings and distances would have been.

Between 12 minutes and 6 minutes(when the PoB started to turn) the bearing would have started to increase sharply and anyone might have thought that any potential danger was over as the ship was then over a mile away.

I am sure that I would have simply assumed it was a ferry to Cherbourg that would just continue on a straight course.

The ferry might well have just started to be hidden by the mainsail at this point to anyone sitting up to windward on a heeled yacht.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

I don't see it as buying safety more reducing the level of risk to my family and friends when we go cruising.

EPIRB - 350
Liferaft - 500-900
DSC VHF - 100 (Most have them nowadays)
White Flares - 15? (Again most have these with the offshore flare packs)
Sea-Me - 500
Friends and families lives - Priceless

Not a lot of money for the additional kit in the schema of things when you consider what role they play on board the boat. Most boats have some or all of this kit, when I buy a new yacht I will certainly factor all the above into my boat budget.

As I said for me it's about risk and the levels of risk I as the skipper deem to be acceptable when I go to sea.

I'd rather shell out the cash when I can afford to, in order to minimise the risk to my family and friends lives. I'd hate to hit a problem have a need for it, find I've not got it, then wish I'd bought the items that could help when I had the spare cash should a problem arise.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
how often do you look behind you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence the cry from crew to helm of "Pantomime Ship!"
Helm: "What?"
Crew: "It's behind you!"

(If required, the helm can alter course and reply "Oh no it isn't!")

It started as a joke, but subsequent watch-handovers always include the phrase "...and watch out for pantomime ships..."
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

No you can not buy safety. Yes, to common sense BUT..

In my experience you can not avoid a ship that is determined to get you. By that I mean a ship that is being steered badly, slowly or when cross tide situations occur. In the later case the ship moves to a new compass course then the autopilot corrects for the tide some delay later. If you are the unfortunate yacht in the way, the decision of which way to go can get difficult!

Also close encounters with ships have a nasty effect of pulling keeled boats into their sides. Where does all the water going past the prop come from? Been there and had to snatch back the wheel from a so called pilot!

Finally, after ~20,000 miles with a SeaMe it is not a solution to rely on. There is absolutely no way to check it is working! Its like having a VHF but never doing a radio check. It is also a lot of lightning sensitive electronics in an exposed position. Calling a ship to do a SeaMe check is hard, as soon as you ask, they adjust the radar and they can see you with or without it! Or they have old off frequency radars that can not see the SeaMe.

Yes, I will always have one but they are not a absolute solution.

That comes to the final point: Ship radar adjustment. When we leave port we set up the radar for small targets like fishing boats. 10m2 of steel is tiny in comparison to another ship! What do they adjust the gain using?

I was on a large sailing ship recently, one large enough to jog around. We had 2 near missed from ships! It has nothing to do with size, it has everything to do with the large ship lookouts! Out at sea a lot of ships do not run the X band radar anyway.

If you want to spend any money then the highest power beam light possible is my advice. At least then you are highlighting yourself to all their deck crew not just the sleepy lookout. After that fit a huge horn up the mast. Use the beam light on any ship at 3 miles that will get within 1 mile of you. You have to hold the beam on the ship for a few minutes to guarantee it being seen. I even had one ship complain it was blinding him, but then he was too close!
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

Family and friends priceless? So am I in my estimate!!
EPIRBs (manual less than £300 auto 350) look good value. Would not have changed events until the Ouzo went down but may have changed the outcome. Nobody knew for many hours what had happened and the report seems to suggest that was ultimately the one avoidable factor for the Ouzo crew.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

I have read the report

I have sailed with ais, both with it being displayed on the radar and stand alone

both types allow you to put in an audible cpa alarm to alert you if a target was going to approach within the critreia set

I dont agree with some of the maib report - and I suspect others dont either
 
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