Ouzo report - can you "buy" safety?

Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

Sorry, I hadn't thought about the AIS thing the other way around - as a means for a yacht to be alerted to the presence of a ship. (Doesn't sound like the MAIB had, either.)

Interesting debate.

Andy
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

No I don't think you can buy safety but we carry most of the stuff except EPIRB (but have MOB 125.5 sets) and do not have Seeme. We do have a 1 million candlepower cordless spotlight that is shone initially on the sails and which in extremis I would shine on the bridge. We have been called several times on Ch16 with 'OK we see you!' so this does work. In the worst case scenario we do have a liferaft and a waterproof grab bag with VHF handheld and spare batteries as well as the usual other stuff ready to go.

My feeling is that Ouzo may well have seen the danger as PoB made the turn but was left uncertain if they were continuing to turn and if not which way they should go to get out of the way.

We had a situation some years back with a ship in the Western Channel in clear daylight visibility and flat calm, coming up fast from astern, not in any shipping lanes/TSS. We were under sail, going downwind. We were quite prepared to move out of the way if needed but which way, especially as we were not the give way boat? We tried calling on VHF Ch16, no reply. The ship (called Lloyd Pacifico) eventually passed just 100m starboard side AFTER we had gybed and headed to port. The 2 visible radar scanners on the ship were both not turning and (with binoculars) nobody was visible on deck or the bridge. We reported the incident via Brixham CG who initially were a bit patronising but later called us back to verify the details as the same ship had apparently been reported several times in the past week along the Channel.

Now I'm not suggesting PoB were as negligent as our ship but I do think they didn't act at all professionally. I don't really buy the spectacles argument, nor the red light one nor even the crazed lens in the nav lights of Ouzo one, these may have had a very minor influence but you cannot see what you are not looking for, either visually or by a (correctly adjusted) radar. I can certainly see how Ouzo's crew would like rabbits in headlights be wondering which way to run. The after incident inactions of PoB are unforgiveable IMO, even if the pro mariners say they were not abnormal in such close encounter incidents.

However, I am reminded that just last Sunday whilst crossing the Channel we 'missed' the Brittany Ferry coming out of the haze astern whilst we were busy looking at other ships in the westbound lane, mea culpa.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

The really key advantage of AIS (and I mean passive, rx on the yacht AIS, which is not what MAIB meant in their report) is that it gives you the name and call sign of the threat. Calling a ship by name and call sign gets their attention in a way that "ship at lat/long .... heading..." does not. They know that, in the channel at least, the exchange is recorded.

We have had a couple of instances crossing the channel were we were the stand on vessel and suspected we hadn't been seen and a call like

"Nonsuch Nonsuch MABCD MABCD this is Witchfinder Withcfinder. We are a sailing yacht 2 miles ahead of your on your starboard bow, we will pass behind you if you hold your course and speed".

(exchange simplifed for clarity)

What we really mean is "do you know we are here, mate?"

We have always got a polite and professional, if sometimes slightly startled reply.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a bit off thread, but in the middle of the night with a fresh breeze, how often do you look behind you? You might be alone and have something else to concentrate on - all be it say an over-powered rig, or a cup of tea, or a fishing boat ahead, - it is very easy to lose concentration on what is behind for 5 to 10 minutes. They may not have seen the PoB till it was on top of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pye End! What a breath of realism!

Its all very well talking about gear and process, but the truth of the matter is that experience can lead to complacency especially when all seems "set fair". I have certainly been guilty of it. It is all too easy to forget about what could be behind that genoa - or over that shoulder - or upwind concealed behind that uncomfortable driving rain and spray.

I have listened to the endless debate on collision avoidance and to my mind the whole debate seems overly complicated. I always take the stance that commercial shipping is operated by blind robots. I place zero reliance on them seeing me or taking any action to avoid me. Consequently I stay clear. I always change course early and clearly to avoid confusion.

In congested port approaches, where necessary I stay where its shallow on the assumption that they aren't going to run aground to get me.

The guys on Ouzo sounded like they were very competent and thorough. It looks like they were caught out this once, which of course is all it takes if you are unlucky.

After all the reports, the memos to deck officers, the updating of procedures, in 2 years time the situation will be exactly the same. Human beings are lousy at being alert when executing mundance repetitive tasks!

I am not dismissing technology or improvements in process, they are very welcome and can help us, BUT in the final analysis it is down to us to be sufficiently defensive not to get caught out and sufficiently scared not to relax.

Conclusion: no you can't buy safety, its an attitude of mind.
 
Can you \"buy\" safety?...

In the (slightly provocative) spirit of the original post, no.

However, thinking a bit wider, then maybe you can buy increased safety, but not absolute safety.

Education, training and experience will help to prevent the boat being put in a dangerous position. These are "bought" to a greater or lesser degree.

However good you are, however, you cannot legislate for random acts of idiocy/incompetency from others, nor the small events that may compound to form a dangerous situation.

Then, having appropriate response equipment/techniques and the training to use them (which can be bought) will help.

I don't believe there is such a thing as absolute safety.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

An AIS receiver gives Rate of Turn information i.e whether the ship is steering straight or is turning on to a collision course with you - this could have saved the day but I would not expect yachts of Ouzo's size to carry one. Does Nasa's £250 receiver display RoT info?
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

One shouldn't place too much reliance on AIS signals, because they are frequently wrong, especially the Rate of Turn values. I've analysed many thousands of AIS messages (I'm writing some software that uses them) and found that the ROT values are the ones that are most frequently wrong. Even ship positions can be wildly out (unless I really have received signals from a boat 1200 miles away in the Sahara). The problem with signals like these are that the software might ignore them but they might be generated by a vessel close to you.
I consider AIS to be a most useful tool, but should only be used in conjunction with everything else.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
Does Nasa's £250 receiver display RoT info?

[/ QUOTE ]

The NASA AIS engine gives out rate of turn and Sea Clear displays it, and very useful it is too.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

Interesting - I use Marpa with a C-screen and it takes 2-3 minutes to recognise a course change and give a new Closest Point of Approach.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

at 19 knots a ship travels a mile in 3 minutes. If it alters course a mile away........

I'm not sure that we know the aspects of the two boats..... there is mention of Bilbao seeing a red light which suggests that she was crossing rather than overtaking...

I would find it hard to believe that the Ouzo hadnt seen Bibao from some distance.... whether being overtaken or crossed.

One thing that was drummed into us as navigating cadets was to always keep a regular lookout behind you. On a yacht, this is fairly easy as there are no sails in the way, so you merely need to move your head and shuffle your bum around a bit.

In reasonably open sea, with little, or no, other traffic, I still suggest a Yacht takes action to keep clear of a big ship, well before there is the remotest chance of collision. heading behind the big ships' stern while she is still a few miles away, is not a bad policy.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]

In reasonably open sea, with little, or no, other traffic, I still suggest a Yacht takes action to keep clear of a big ship, well before there is the remotest chance of collision. heading behind the big ships' stern while she is still a few miles away, is not a bad policy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't have put it better myself - have been practising & advocating this course of action for years.
If they're at sea for a living (ferry, cargo, fishing or military) I keep well clear - always.

Rather than spending wads of cash on bits of kit you hope never to have to use, make sure you never find yourself in a position where you would need them.
Common sense is free, but sometimes seems in very short supply.
And being able to quote ColRegs does not help you one bit if the other party's on autopilot & reading a book.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

There's been a lot of hype and some good sense said and written about the Ouzo tragedy, which am quietly digesting and will decide what's sensible for me in due course, but the thing that strikes me is that it's been in the headlines of not just the yachting press but also the national press for months. On the roads, similar happenings are a daily occurrence, yet they barely make the local news, precisely because they are daily occurrences. The Ouzo hit the headlines because such accidents are so rare.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I still think the most dangerous part of my trip across the Channel is the drive down to the boat. What will keep me and mine alive both on the boat and in the car isn't a load of potted safety, some of which, at least may be beneficial, but none of which is infallible, but being alert and aware of potential hazards. That's not infallible either, but nothing is completely without risk - even staying at home.

Yes it was a tragedy, but let's keep it in perspective.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
In reasonably open sea, with little, or no, other traffic, I still suggest a Yacht takes action to keep clear of a big ship, well before there is the remotest chance of collision. heading behind the big ships' stern while she is still a few miles away, is not a bad policy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst I understand and even agree with the philosphy of might is right, things are often not that simple.

The problem in busy areas like the English Channel is that it is never just one ship but a whole line of them abreast and astern and maybe a North/South going ferry or two as well. In these circumstances altering course 'a few miles away' behind ship number one may well put you slap in the way of another, maybe not yet even seen.

We just this last week crossed the Channel both ways and on both occasions the visibility was poor, going south it was no more than 1.4mls and occasionally under a mile, as confirmed by visible v radar contacts. We crossed southbound without needing to alter course at all, with careful radar plotting using an older set, no MARPA, plus mk1 eyeball once the targets came out of the murk. Now had we headed to pass astern of all and sundry we a) might have gone Poole-Cherbourg via Ushant or b) had nightmares because by constantly altering course in an 'after you Sir' fashion we had no constant predictable plot on the radar. On our return trip northbound visibility was better and in fact the radar wasn't running until visibilty suddenly closed down to 0.5ml when just off the UK coast. Again we passed close to several ships and about a mile in front of two, but did not need to alter course.

A comment too about CPA. Often we have passed ahead of ships at a reasonable distance in good visibilty of say over a mile, yet the CPA as the ship passed ninety degrees across our stern was very much less than that. Using CPA and setting it to some arbitrary minimum might mean a lot of wide diversions unless used with some common sense. I'm talking here about good visibility BTW not in fog when in my book a mile (or more) is as good as a miss not the other way round!
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In reasonably open sea, with little, or no, other traffic, I still suggest a Yacht takes action to keep clear of a big ship, well before there is the remotest chance of collision. heading behind the big ships' stern while she is still a few miles away, is not a bad policy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst I understand and even agree with the philosphy of might is right, things are often not that simple.

The problem in busy areas like the English Channel is that it is never just one ship but a whole line of them abreast and astern and maybe a North/South going ferry or two as well. In these circumstances altering course 'a few miles away' behind ship number one may well put you slap in the way of another, maybe not yet even seen.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, and the reason i said open sea, no traffic which, if i am correct, was the Ouzo situation, which is what we are talking about.

In busier areas, it doesnt apply, and a lot more attention has to be given to ducking and diving, or not, as the case may be.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

I think having a radar set is possibly more important than any other piece of electronic equipment... I nearly got wiped out in the North Sea in a fog with about 20 mtrs viz and no radar... It never saw me.. Just came out of nothing ahead giving me just time to put the helm hard over.....20 - 30 feet in it... Very frightening and it probably would not have noticed as we collided - if that had happened! With radar I would have know it was there..........

To repeat what I posted earlier - a strobe light at night is I think a better way of attracting attention... It does not consume too much power.. because it is 'strobing' it draws the attention better than a light and is a good way to identify yourself to a ship if you are on VHF...

Michael
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

One aspect of the Ouzo sinking that I have not seen comment on is the lateness of the ferry. It was over 2 hours behind schedule.

Ferries bound for France would not pass the collision point, they would be on a more southerly course. Only the Spanish ferry would have been on this course.

From this I am tempted to speculate that the Ouzo's crew, being locals, were familiar with the pattern of ferry movements around the IofW. They might have deduced that the Pride of Bilbao had already passed through.

This assumption may have lessened their alertness about keeping a stern lookout.

All guesswork, of course, the only lesson I suppose being "never assume...."
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

one of the good things about using www.shipplotter.com software for ais is the cpa plus audible warning. you can set up a minimum cpa within a certain time, and anything breaching that sets of a warning. That means that as you approach a seperation zone, you can be looking at traffic more than 10 miles away, and modifying your co/sp before they become visible, such that you can pass astern safely. It will then warn if they alter course and it becomes dangerous again - yes I know that not all are using AIS, but this enables you to keep more attention on those that are not using ais.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]

The problem in busy areas like the English Channel is that it is never just one ship but a whole line of them abreast and astern and maybe a North/South going ferry or two as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been my experience that in these situations a "big" ship is least likely to change course. Also, this is the situation where you can reasonably expect that their bridge is properly manned and they keep a proper look-out.
Not because of the presence of yachts, but because there are other "big ships" around.

More often than not, it's more dangerous outside the shipping lanes.
 
Re: Ouzo report - can you \"buy\" safety?

[ QUOTE ]
It's been my experience that in these situations a "big" ship is least likely to change course. Also, this is the situation where you can reasonably expect that their bridge is properly manned and they keep a proper look-out.
Not because of the presence of yachts, but because there are other "big ships" around.

More often than not, it's more dangerous outside the shipping lanes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is true although over the years we have had many many really big ships alter course for us, often only as we had just sighted them. I guess that was because a tiny course change at 5mls say would avoid a more drastic one later. However in recent years it seems far fewer vessels whatever their size give way. For some reason we found the Fleet Auxiliary boats were the worst, lots of bodies visible on deck but never a change of course! Certainly the biggest PITAs are the smaller vessels often inshore of the lanes proper, those and also the bigger ones going against the flow, maybe because they have just come out of or are headed for a nearby port and time constraints mean they join the correct 'lane' area obliquely rather than by the shortest 90 deg crossing. Once inshore, out of the main flow of traffic it is easy to breath a sigh of relief and maybe be too relaxed about keeping a really good lookout.
 
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