Shearwater
Member
All sorts of interesting words on Admiralty charts - does anyone know origin of "sunk" sea area??
Origin of word "SUNK" i.r.o. sea area off Harwich?
- Thread starter Shearwater
- Start date
Slowboat35
Well-known member
Deep or depressed (in the physical sense)?
But I agree, the language of traditional charts is very evocative.
But I agree, the language of traditional charts is very evocative.
Poignard
Well-known member
A lot of banks are named after ships that have been lost on them.
Dogger Bank is, I believe, named for the territory known as Doggerland, which sank below the North Sea.
Perhaps the name Sunk has something to do with that.
Dogger Bank is, I believe, named for the territory known as Doggerland, which sank below the North Sea.
Perhaps the name Sunk has something to do with that.
LittleSister
Well-known member
I'd always assumed it was the other way around: Doggerland being named after the bank which received its name from people probably unaware of the prehistory of the area around it.
tillergirl
Well-known member
I suspect that the 'Sunk' was a relatively late naming and I think it only became relevant once shipping needed a point of reference for the East Swin. In Charles I' time shipping from the North bound for London didn't use the East Swin, opting for the Wallet and the Spitway. One early buoy was approved at Goldmer Gat to mark the entrance of the Wallet, not at the Sunk. Later, the East Swin started to be used and a light vessel to mark the East Swin was strategically positioned. Since there was already a 'Gunfleet' Light the next sand bank in turn was/is the Sunk Sand. Could that be why the Lightship was named the Sunk Light? And of course the Sunk then became a much more important 'mark' as Felixstowe developed as a port and the Black Deep latterly because a marked shipping channel.
Which, if correct, why was the Sunk Sand called the Sunk Sand. The Long Sand was probably called the Long Sand because it was long.
Did the Sunk Sand get called Sunk because it spent most of its time hidden. Note Sunken Island in West Mersea - so named because it gets totally covered by most springs. The Sunk Sand is covered by half tide or earlier. Note also the Sunken Buxey in the Outer Crouch. The Sunken Buxey is always covered.
Wagenhaer (1584) didn't find (or at least mark) the Sunk Sand. Van Kevlen (1686) did mark the Sunk Sand but didn't use the name (I can't read it) [Van Kevlen marked the SW Sunk swatchway - just ponder on that. How was it found, indeed why did he or somebody bother to identify it?]. Anyway the in 1584 the Sunk Sand was missed, it was there in 1686 and by the 1800 it was certainly called the Sunk Sand.
Well, it's a theory.
Which, if correct, why was the Sunk Sand called the Sunk Sand. The Long Sand was probably called the Long Sand because it was long.
Did the Sunk Sand get called Sunk because it spent most of its time hidden. Note Sunken Island in West Mersea - so named because it gets totally covered by most springs. The Sunk Sand is covered by half tide or earlier. Note also the Sunken Buxey in the Outer Crouch. The Sunken Buxey is always covered.Wagenhaer (1584) didn't find (or at least mark) the Sunk Sand. Van Kevlen (1686) did mark the Sunk Sand but didn't use the name (I can't read it) [Van Kevlen marked the SW Sunk swatchway - just ponder on that. How was it found, indeed why did he or somebody bother to identify it?]. Anyway the in 1584 the Sunk Sand was missed, it was there in 1686 and by the 1800 it was certainly called the Sunk Sand.
Well, it's a theory.
14K478
Well-known member
And that’s the post we were hoping for!I suspect that the 'Sunk' was a relatively late naming and I think it only became relevant once shipping needed a point of reference for the East Swin. In Charles I' time shipping from the North bound for London didn't use the East Swin, opting for the Wallet and the Spitway. One early buoy was approved at Goldmer Gat to mark the entrance of the Wallet, not at the Sunk. Later, the East Swin started to be used and a light vessel to mark the East Swin was strategically positioned. Since there was already a 'Gunfleet' Light the next sand bank in turn was/is the Sunk Sand. Could that be why the Lightship was named the Sunk Light? And of course the Sunk then became a much more important 'mark' as Felixstowe developed as a port and the Black Deep latterly because a marked shipping channel.
Which, if correct, why was the Sunk Sand called the Sunk Sand. The Long Sand was probably called the Long Sand because it was long.
Wagenhaer (1584) didn't find (or at least mark) the Sunk Sand. Van Kevlen (1686) did mark the Sunk Sand but didn't use the name (I can't read it) [Van Kevlen marked the SW Sunk swatchway - just ponder on that. How was it found, indeed why did he or somebody bother to identify it?]. Anyway the in 1584 the Sunk Sand was missed, it was there in 1686 and by the 1800 it was certainly called the Sunk Sand.
Well, it's a theory.
Thank you!
shanemax
Active member
Please pay attention cos tillergirl will be asking questions later !
fredrussell
Well-known member
Mods, please remove Tillergirl’s post as it contains an unwelcome amount of facts that are bringing the forum into good repute.
I don’t come on internet forums to hear from people who actually know what they’re talking about. Disgraceful!
I don’t come on internet forums to hear from people who actually know what they’re talking about. Disgraceful!
Aquaboy
Well-known member
I assume we had lower sea levels so many more banks became visible at low water in the past, and thats how the swatchway was found.
johnalison
Well-known member
That can’t be true because everywhere I go there is invariably far less water than indicated on the chart/plotter or whatever ad hoc means of navigation I am using at the time.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
That's correct. It's named for its use by "doggers", a type of Dutch fishing vessel that exploited the shallow water of the bank for fishing.
Poignard
Well-known member
dolabriform
Well-known member
As opposed to the other kind found in car parks after dark
LittleSister
Well-known member
It amused me to playfully imagine that type of fishing vessel might in turn have been named after the Dogger Bank, in a circular reference fashion. It amused me even more to find out that is (sort of) the case!
'The dogger (Dutch pronunciation: [dɔɣər]) was a form of fishing boat, described as early as the fourteenth century, that commonly operated in the North Sea. Early examples were single-masted: by the seventeenth century, two-masted doggers were common. They were largely used for fishing for cod by rod and line. Dutch boats were common in the North Sea, and the word dogger was given to the rich fishing grounds where they often fished, which became known as the Dogger Bank. The sea area in turn gave its name to the later design of boat that commonly fished that area, and so became associated with this specific design rather than the generic Dutch trawlers.'
Dogger (boat) - Wikipedia
thalassa
Member
The Wikipedia page is not entirely accurate. It was roughly a group (not a specific type) of similar fishing vessels, with fishing tackle adapted to fish for codfish in that area. Codfish is now called 'kabeljauw' in Dutch, but in the 16th-17th century it was 'dogge', or 'doggevis'.
dolabriform
Well-known member
Are you going to edit it then?
thalassa
Member
Done...
dolabriform
Well-known member
Nice one
LittleSister
Well-known member
jnonauta
New member
As a footnote to tillergirl's excellent post of 5th November, the Sunk Sand is marked and named on 'A New and Accurate Chart of the Mouth of the Thames ..... improved by James Grosvenor pilot and John Bean master of the Buoy Yacht.' London, Robert Sayer 1786 which is reproduced opposite the title page of H.Muir Evans, A Short History of the Thames Estuary (1936). Evans does not suggest an origin for the name.
