Orca attack

[ducked]

Nah! Use the biggest you've got. Why give it time for another bite of your rudder.

Will depend on the attack mode. Ones I've seen accounts of they hang around for a bit and probe fairly tentatively at first, rather than immediately piling in.

Lethal baited pre-emptive attacks, as suggested above, as well as being immoral and illegal, seem unlilely to be effective more than once or twice, since these are neither solo nor stupid attackers.

They also would seem calculated to encourage lethal pre-emptive attacks by the Orca, which would be a most unwelcome development.

 

[billskip]

I think it could be a very expensive exercise if caught using deterrents in Spanish waters, I don't think I would like to test the system.
Up to €60,000 fine for jumping in and swimming with whales and dolphins according to those caught a couple of days ago in Tenerife.
However at a time of crisis I certainly won't be thinking about the law and the consequences...

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think it could be a very expensive exercise if caught using deterrents in Spanish waters, I don't think I would like to test the system.
Up to €60,000 fine for jumping in and swimming with whales and dolphins according to those caught a couple of days ago in Tenerife.
However at a time of crisis I certainly won't be thinking about the law and the consequences...

There is a world of difference between swimming with dolphins and preventing an attack by a predator in order to save a boat and crew from harm. As the first step in defence one would use the opinion quoted by Webby

 

[Sailfree]

LEGALITY OF FIRECRACKERS
----—------------------------------------------
Recently a Portuguese lawyer posted in a Portuguese Facebook group an explanation regarding the legality of using small explosives (seal bombs) to end an Orca attack on a sailboat.

Seal bombs (or similar) are used to protect Orcas driving them away from oil spills and have been used with success to drive orcas away when they are attacking sailboats, but the legality of their use has been questioned by ecologists and governments have a dubious interpretation regarding the legality of using them.

With almost 10 boats sunk by Orcas, many more saved narrowly, several hundreds with broken rudders and about 1000 sailboats attacked, it seems to me that the subject is relevant, because it concerns not only the ones that sail in Portugal, Spain, Morocco and France, but also all that want to enter or go out of the Mediterranean sea.

So, here is what João Bleck Vasconcelos Sá says about the legality of using small explosives to drive orcas away when a boat is attacked:

"As I've always advocated, liberally small explosives, at the very least (to drive Orcas away when they are attacking your boat).

Many people have asked me about the captain's duty to protect the ship and crew! As a lawyer, I can help by saying:

The captain of a vessel is not only responsible for the technical navigation of the vessel: he is the ultimate guarantor of the safety of human life, the vessel, and its cargo. His role carries legal weight far beyond navigation itself, involving criminal, civil, and administrative liabilities that cross national borders.

In Iberian waters, where vessels sail under various flags (Portugal, Spain, Poland, France, the United Kingdom, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Germany), the central question arises: which law applies, and to what extent does the captain's obligation to act in cases of danger extend?

1- Flag State Rule and Coastal Jurisdiction
Article 91 of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS, 1982) establishes that every vessel must sail under the flag of a single State and is subject to its exclusive jurisdiction on the high seas.
This means that the captain is primarily bound by the obligations of the flag State (Portugal, Spain, France, Poland, etc.). However, in territorial waters (up to 12 nautical miles), the jurisdiction of the coastal State also applies, particularly in matters of safety of navigation, environmental protection, and public order...

2- Legal Framework in Selected European Countries:

• Portugal: Portuguese legislation on recreational navigation and, subsidiarily, the professional maritime regime apply, imposing on the captain the duty to employ all means to protect the crew, cargo, and vessel. The Penal Code (Art. 10, § 2) classifies the captain as a guarantor, punishing failure to do so. Article 32 enshrines self-defense, allowing a proportionate response.

• Spain: The "Commercial Code" (Art. 612) and the "Law of Ports and Merchant Marinas" (Art. 86) establish the captain as the highest authority on board. The Spanish Penal Code (Art. 195) punishes failure to provide assistance. Self-defense is provided for in Art. 20.

• Poland: The "Kodeks morski" (Maritime Code) and the "Kodeks Karny" (Penal Code) impose on the captain the duty to protect the crew and the vessel. Self-defense is provided for in Article 25 KK.

• France: The "Code des Transports" and the "Code Penal" (Article 223-6) require the captain to ensure safety and provide assistance. Self-defense is recognized in Article 122-5.

• United Kingdom: The Merchant Shipping Act 1995 and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) regulations impose on the captain a duty of care. Self-defense arises from common law and the Criminal Law Act 1967.

• Sweden: The "Sjölagen" (Maritime Code) obliges the captain to take all necessary safety measures. Self-defense is governed by Chapter 24 of the "Brottsbalken" (Penal Code).

• Denmark: The Danish Merchant Shipping Act assigns full responsibility to the captain for the crew. Failure to provide assistance is punishable under Section 13 of the Penal Code, which also regulates self-defense.

• Netherlands: The "Burgerlijk Wetboek" (Book of Maritime Law) regulates maritime law and imposes a duty of safety on the captain. The "Wetboek van Strafrecht" (Arts. 307 and 450) criminalizes negligence and failure to provide assistance. Self-defense is recognized in Art. 41.

• Germany: The "Handelsgesetzbuch" (HGB) and the "Seemannsgesetz" (Seemannsgesetz) place the captain as the highest authority on board. § 323c of the "Strafgesetzbuch" (StGB) punishes failure to provide assistance. Self-defense is regulated in § 32 of the StGB.

3. Self-Defense at Sea
In all these countries, self-defense is recognized as a ground of justification:

• Portugal (Art. 32 of the Penal Code), Spain (Art. 20 of the Penal Code), France (Art. 122-5 of the Penal Code), Poland (Art. 25 of the Penal Code), the United Kingdom (common law), Sweden (Chapter 24 of the Penal Code), Denmark (Art. 13 of the Penal Code), the Netherlands (Art. 41 of the Penal Code), and Germany (§ 32 of the Penal Code).
This means that the captain may resort to necessary and proportionate means to repel an unlawful attack—be it piracy, sabotage, or any other imminent threat to the crew or vessel, including threats from wild animals.

4. The Primacy of Human Life and Vessel Safety
Maritime law and criminal law converge on an essential principle: human life and vessel safety are paramount legal values, prevailing over other interests when they conflict.
In extreme situations, such as rudder strikes by killer whales, the captain may be compelled to resort to measures that, under normal circumstances, would constitute administrative, environmental, or even minor criminal offenses.
For example, the use of fireworks or small acoustic signaling devices to deter killer whales.

• As a rule, such use may constitute an environmental violation or the illicit use of pyrotechnics. • However, in the face of an imminent attack that threatens human life and the integrity of the vessel, such conduct may be legally classified as a necessary and proportionate act of self-defense (Art. 32 of the Portuguese Penal Code; Art. 20 of the Spanish Penal Code; § 32 of the German Penal Code; Art. 41 of the Dutch Penal Code, etc.).
• Case law and doctrine also recognize the state of necessity (Art. 34 of the Portuguese Penal Code; Art. 20.5 of the Spanish Penal Code), which excludes unlawfulness when a lesser legal interest is sacrificed to save another of greater value—such as human life.
International law reinforces this hierarchy:
• Article 98 of UNCLOS imposes on all captains the absolute duty to protect human life at sea;
• The SOLAS Convention (1974) enshrines the safeguarding of life as a supreme priority.

Thus, the occasional and proportionate use of otherwise illegal means is fully justified when the immediate defense of the crew and the ship is at stake."

As I sail in Portuguese waters - where can you buy them please. PM me if necessary.

I started this thread ages ago once I realised the serious risk these Orcas were to sailing boats (mainly in Portuguese and Spanish waters)

I find it amazing the interest and posts discussing the trim of a sinking boat instead of what should be the main concern that Orcas damaged the boat sufficient for it to sink and endanger the crews life.

I would be devastated if any boat I owned was damaged and sunk but the last thing that would concern me is the trim of the boat as it sunk!

 

[Roberto]

There is a world of difference between swimming with dolphins and preventing an attack by a predator in order to save a boat and crew from harm. As the first step in defence one would use the opinion quoted by Webby

Also, I think a court would take into account if something is done intentionnally or not: taking a voluntary dive to swim with dolphins is one thing, should one accidentally fall overboard in an area with dolphins and then being rescued a different thing imho. One would not take explosives and begin shelling the water all around just in case, using them in reaction to an animal which is pounding and breaking hull and rudder imho a different story.

 

[geem]

As I sail in Portuguese waters - where can you buy them please. PM me if necessary.

I started this thread ages ago once I realised the serious risk these Orcas were to sailing boats (mainly in Portuguese and Spanish waters)

I find it amazing the interest and posts discussing the trim of a sinking boat instead of what should be the main concern that Orcas damaged the boat sufficient for it to sink and endanger the crews life.

I would be devastated if any boat I owned was damaged and sunk but the last thing that would concern me is the trim of the boat as it sunk!

My interest was if there was any additional damage other than loss of the rudder. Going down bow first isn't common for yachts unless there was a considerable sized opening in the bow area.

 

[TSB240]

of

 

[billskip]

Also, I think a court would take into account if something is done intentionnally or not: taking a voluntary dive to swim with dolphins is one thing, should one accidentally fall overboard in an area with dolphins and then being rescued a different thing imho. One would not take explosives and begin shelling the water all around just in case, using them in reaction to an animal which is pounding and breaking hull and rudder imho a different story.

My words were..Wouldn't like to test the system...its all well and good to state your points of view, but the Spanish as I see, don't listen to any excuses, and arguing your point could be costly and extremely time consuming...

 

[Daydream believer]

Dead orcas wil not approach boats either. Selective removal.

 

[geem]

Dead orcas wil not approach boats either. Selective removal.

Killing orcas instead of scaring them away would definitely see you in prison

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

I'm not sure, but I think you need a licence for spear gun /harpoon in Spanish waters.

You need an underwater fishing licence, but of course, you wouldn't be underwater fishing in this sense..
Spain has licences for every type of fishing, even from shore, it's a bit of a pain.

 

[billskip]

You need an underwater fishing licence, but of course, you wouldn't be underwater fishing in this sense..
Spain has licences for every type of fishing, even from shore, it's a bit of a pain.

My partners son lives here on Tenerife, he has a speargun and the licence, I can assure you that if he is stopped with the speargun in his car on the way to fishing or return, either way not under water, he has to produce his licence.
Or are you saying the police follow you into the water until you submerge and then ask for the licence....?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Killing orcas instead of scaring them away would definitely see you in prison

Someone should make the sacrifice

 

[ducked]

Dead orcas wil not approach boats either. Selective removal.

Selective how?

The method you outline, practicalities, moralities and legalities aside, would seem to only select orca that'll take your suspicious bait (if there are any) which may not be the same minority that has a taste for rudders.

It would be more effective to pack your boat with high explosives with a pull switch rigged to your tiller. More selective too.

https://stephentaylorhistorian.com/...nbd-british-land-mines-and-firing-devices.pdf

Page 45. I've only used a more modern version, which was polythene, so maybe more marine friendly, and would do pull, pressure, and pressure release, but you probably wont be able to get one or the precussion caps it uses, so its probably easier to improvise an electric detonator with a clothes peg based elecrical contact switch.

Let me know if I can (from a safe distance, I'm in Taiwan at the moment which is probably OK, though I'll have to check on extradition from a country that doesn't exist to a country that doesn't recognise it) be any help with further details.

 

[greeny]

As I sail in Portuguese waters - where can you buy them please. PM me if necessary.

I started this thread ages ago once I realised the serious risk these Orcas were to sailing boats (mainly in Portuguese and Spanish waters)

I find it amazing the interest and posts discussing the trim of a sinking boat instead of what should be the main concern that Orcas damaged the boat sufficient for it to sink and endanger the crews life.

I would be devastated if any boat I owned was damaged and sunk but the last thing that would concern me is the trim of the boat as it sunk!

Probably have to travel to Spain. Any for sale in Portugal will be on black market. You will need to "know someone" Just google buy firecrackers Spain. Better asking locally where others get theirs from maybe if you get them to admit they have them.

 

[greeny]

My words were..Wouldn't like to test the system...its all well and good to state your points of view, but the Spanish as I see, don't listen to any excuses, and arguing your point could be costly and extremely time consuming...

Last crew to be arrested for the use of pyros were released without charge and still no further action for 18 months so really dont think the spanish authorities have any appetite for the prosecution. But as you say, better not test the sytem. Deny ownership, deny usage. No witnesses.

 

[greeny]

My partners son lives here on Tenerife, he has a speargun and the licence, I can assure you that if he is stopped with the speargun in his car on the way to fishing or return, either way not under water, he has to produce his licence.
Or are you saying the police follow you into the water until you submerge and then ask for the licence....?

Here in portugal you can buy them in decathlon and drive away with them in the boot. No one asks for a license. They will ask if you are caught in the water using it. Ive got one on my boat, had it for years, dont use it anymore. Marine police have seen it on several occasions during inspections. No questions asked. I dont know the law as I suspect most dont on here but on the ground, they dont bother you.

 

[greeny]

We don't need to kill them or do serious injury. Scaring them away works for the fishermen. It should work fine for yachties. If every boat they approached did the same, they wouldn't approach boats

Its called "learned behaviour". They learned playing with rudders was fun and the behaviour has spread. They can learn that attacking boats is not fun anymore if theres a loud bang that upsets them. If they legalised the use of firecrackers for this purpose and everyone used them, theyd learn to not do it any more.

 

[billskip]

Here in portugal

Well I was referring to Spain, and even in Spain the law can be different in different regions, so quoting the law may depend on regions.
However here on Tenerife you would also need a medical certificate (and I believe insurance, not sure) to get a speargun licence

 

[Daydream believer]

Here in portugal you can buy them in decathlon and drive away with them in the boot. No one asks for a license. They will ask if you are caught in the water using it. Ive got one on my boat, had it for years, dont use it anymore.

Well how many times did you expect to use it?
Surely one bang & it has gone.
If you want an explanation ask a terrorist instructor for a demonstration on the use of suicide bomb belts