Optimum boat size

[Chae_73]

Most of my sailing experience was in my father's Samphire 29. We sailed to Holland, Belgium and around the East Coast. When I finished my A levels, I took the boat around the South Coast and up to Scotland as far as Bute.

During this time (which was 30 years ago), whilst I liked our Samphire, I always thought that I would like a bigger boat. A bigger boat would be faster, more comfortable, more seaworthy.

29 years after I returned from Bute to Orford, we have a bigger boat. A 33' Westerly Storm. Now I'm getting back to sailing, and perhaps unsurprisingly, my initial impression is that a bigger boat is a bit more of a handful in some situations. Heavier, more freeboard, bigger sails exerting greater forces.

The Samphire didn't do anything particularly well, but it was quite forgiving of mistakes! I was quite happy to sail her single handed or with inexperienced crew.

I'm sure that a lot of this is just familiarity. I have been away for a long time. I need a season or two to get to know the boat and get confident again in what I am doing,

So my question is, at what point does the effort required to manage a larger boat start to outweigh the undoubted benefits? At what point does single handing become hard / inadvisable?

I guess a lot of this depends on use. We keep the boat on a swinging mooring. We will be sailing around the East Coast. At some point I'd like to sail around the UK, and when things settle down a bit, to Holland and maybe Denmark / the Frisians. Crew at present is mainly my father and me, sometimes with one of my teenage sons. It's possible other family might want to join in, but then I'd need a bigger boat!

 

[Goldie]

2m bigger than you currently have seems to be the general rule!

 

[Chae_73]

2m bigger than you currently have seems to be the general rule!

Yeah, that's the one I'm familiar with!

 

[dunedin]

Some things can make a slightly bigger modern boat easier to sail short handed or single handed - for example
- below deck autopilot ram - this hugely transforms sailing solo
- electric anchor windlass
- bow thruster with wireless remote
- electric winch for main halyard (and use as general hoist crane)
Personally I think there is a sweet spot between 36-40 foot for coastal cruising. Bigger than that often means too big to use visitor moorings and general pontoon berths in many places (probably different in lake Solent)
But a Westerly Storm is a great boat, and maybe a bit of practice and a few carefully selected enhancements (eg best available autopilot) can make your current boat your ideal boat.

 

[pvb]

So my question is, at what point does the effort required to manage a larger boat start to outweigh the undoubted benefits? At what point does single handing become hard / inadvisable?

In the same way that cars have got bigger over the years, so have boats. With modern sail-handling systems, reliable autopilots, thrusters and windlasses, it's easier than ever to sail a modern boat. I'm usually single-handed and find the steadier motion of a larger heavier boat is an advantage. But there comes a point where the boat does get a bit big for single-handing, and I reckon it's at around 40ft.

In my experience, centre cockpit boats are easier to single-hand, but these are no longer very common in the mass market.

 

[laika]

In my experience, centre cockpit boats are easier to single-hand, but these are no longer very common in the mass market.

I'd question that: not under way but coming into a berth wide side decks can mean you can't just lean out of the cockpit to drop a loop over a cleat or bollard: it's a bit of a scramble out of the cockpit to the guardrail leaving the wheel to itself

 

[pvb]

I'd question that: not under way but coming into a berth wide side decks can mean you can't just lean out of the cockpit to drop a loop over a cleat or bollard: it's a bit of a scramble out of the cockpit to the guardrail leaving the wheel to itself

My last boat was a centre cockpit (Hallberg-Rassy 352) and it was very easy to moor alongside pontoons, as the cockpit was closer the the mid-point of the boat, so quicker to get a spring line from the midships cleat on to the pontoon.

 

[ryanroberts]

I was trying to balance cost, condition, being a mostly solo newbie dazed kipper sailor (though was used to handling a sewer tube) and liveability and it came out at 33'. Has furling everything, hydraulic + autopilot, centre cleats and thrusters which all have helped me keep captain cockup mostly under control.

 

[Tranona]

It is as much about the type of boat and how it is set up as the size. Your Storm, great boat though it is is not necessarily a good starting point for easy short or single handed sailing (and very different from a boat like the Samphire). My similar size Bavaria is at the opposite extreme. As in post#4 it has all the bits to make life easy. Fractional rig with 105% jib, in mast furling, all lines back to the cockpit, bow thruster, electric windlass, winches right by the wheel, autopilot and so on. What it lacks of course is the sharp performance you can get from a Storm. Previously I had an even bigger Bavaria, but that had the older rig with 135% headsail, mainsheet on the coachroof and no bow thruster. So difficult to berth on my own and hard work sailing - no tacking up and down Poole Harbour like I can now!

The approach I took when buying this boat was to identify the things I found difficult and find solutions either in the basic design of the boat or in the gear that would reduce or eliminate those difficulties. Of course there are limitations to what you can do with an existing boat. As examples things like lazyjacks, fully battened mainsails, lines led aft to good winches and maybe a smaller higher cut jib can ease sail handling. Tiller steering does not lend itself to a good autopilot. OK when in steady state if it is powerful enough but less than convenient if using it to hold a course while you sort out other things like setting and dropping sails, preparing for going into a marina berth. With wheel steering you just press the button, engine at low and you chug along under control. Press off when ready to move on or start sailing. Helps if the boat has good inherent directional stability of course.

Suggest you persevere and work through what you find difficult. Pretty sure you should be able to make things easier. Would be a shame to give up when you have a good basic boat. Might be worth joining the WOA and meeting up with other Storm owners as pretty sure you are not the only one who has struggled to come to terms with the boat.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I think your main point is on how you intend to use the boat. You seem to be a cruiser, as are we. I have done a fair bit of ocean sailing where a large boat has considerable benefits such as speed, load carrying ability, seaworthiness and it presents a more stable platform. It is a completely different style of sailing than coastal cruising. On a 25000 mile, 18 month voyage from Europe to the Canadian West Coast we tied up in port maybe a dozen times, coastal cruising in Europe we do that in less than 18 days.

For us the whole point of cruising is to visit places and here size and draft are the two most restricting factors. Some Danish and Dutch harbours are tiny (and crowded) and many areas are draft constrained, the Danish South Seas, the Friesian islands, some of the Dutch canals and Meers and the Breton rivers. The real fun of coastal sailing are the places that are not always accessible to the larger boat.

Sure, a lot of issues for a short-handed crew can be overcome by technology, but this also increases maintenance, costs and reliance. It still doesn't make the boat any more compact, reduce harbour fees, moorage and maintainance costs or more easy to handle should any of these technological aids fail.

Our current boat is 31.5". When permitted, we spend between 3 and 4 months on board during the summers. My wife and I usually cruise two up, but we've also had our teen aged kids with us and, on occasion, two additional adults (total of 6) for periods up to 4 weeks. We are still all talking. There is a considerable difference between just living on board and the day to day life of a ship on a cruise, the days filled with activities, exploration and the business of running the boat. As long as everyone has a place to sleep, space does not really matter that much.

At 31', we have found space in the smallest ports, explored wonderful, out of the way places with a draft of just over 4', sailed with up to six people at a time, live on board in some comfort for several months each year, the sail areas are easily handled (ketch), the well-used ground tackle is not too heavy, she is big and stout enough to keep us safe at sea (tested that at some length and up to a F9) and we didn't have to break the bank.

 

[johnalison]

Small boats need much more skill than bigger boats, which is why today’s generation of new recruits buy something in the upper 30 foot range as soon as they have their bits of paper, and mostly get away with it. On a bigger boat, and mine is a mere 34’, everything happens much slower and the boat will mostly know what to do better than me. When my 22’ boat would need a reef in a F4, I can now keep full sail to windward virtually to the top of 5. Sail handling is generally easier, and larger winches take care of the jib. The only extra muscle needed is when hoisting the main and if anyone is foolish enough to try and compete with the boat when holding shore lines. One major disadvantage of a bigger boat is the miserable job of trying to get the mainsail into a sailbag.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Small boats need much more skill than bigger boats,

Have not heard that before but I think it has some merit.

My own criteria with regard to boat size has primarily been cost, not so much in purchase and maintenance but parking , both in and out of the water.

I think that keeping sailing simple becomes more difficult as size increases.

 

[BobnLesley]

...I always thought that I would like a bigger boat. A bigger boat would be faster, more comfortable, more seaworthy...

Sorry, in my experience none of those are 'always' true; the nearest I can offer to an absolute truth would be that the bigger boat will cost you more to moor and maintain.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Small boats need much more skill than bigger boats, which is why today’s generation of new recruits buy something in the upper 30 foot range as soon as they have their bits of paper, and mostly get away with it. On a bigger boat, and mine is a mere 34’, everything happens much slower and the boat will mostly know what to do better than me. When my 22’ boat would need a reef in a F4, I can now keep full sail to windward virtually to the top of 5. Sail handling is generally easier, and larger winches take care of the jib. The only extra muscle needed is when hoisting the main and if anyone is foolish enough to try and compete with the boat when holding shore lines. One major disadvantage of a bigger boat is the miserable job of trying to get the mainsail into a sailbag.

I'm afraid I do not agree. My previous boat was 50' over deck with various bits hanging over the ends adding to that; she displaced 30 tons. Maneuvering in a marina and docking requires more skill than parking a 22'. Regardless of wind or current, you can't just stick out a leg to fend off or push the bow over by hand, you have to bring her into dock without destroying the dock or sinking your neighbours and the amount of damage you could do in a cock-up would be impressive. The argument that you do not have to reef in a F4 does not hold water either; so you reef in a F6 or 7. By then the sea is pretty lively, even on a big boat and you are fighting a much larger, heavier sail instead. Things just move up in the scale. A designer of my acquaintance and who has designed a number of larger boats said: "At some point its more like operating heavy machinery."

Our present contraption displaces 8.5 tons; it is much the same: there is no jumping, no pushing off while docking and if we hit, we hit and fetch up the insurance papers.

 

[Chae_73]

Thanks all for the detailed and informative replies.

I've already joined the WOA and met one Storm owner who has been kind enough to "show us the ropes".

I'm not thinking of giving up. Whatever happens, we will keep this boat for a couple of seasons at minimum, and get it as "sorted" as we can in that time.

We have already made enquiries about a slightly smaller and higher cut foresail, just trying to get the sail maker and boat to meet up for measurement!

All lines from the mast are lead aft on the Storm and managed on the coach roof. The winches are two speed manual but not self tailing. An electric winch on the main halyard side is an interesting idea.

It has a manual windlass.

As @Tranona notes, tiller steering and top notch AP are not natural partners. The auto helm that the boat came with seems reasonably capable. I looked at the possiblity of a below decks unit but the rudder shaft is glassed in so not a straightforward job.

Part of my question (mainly to myself) is whether the Storm is *the* boat that I want for the next 10 years or so, and therefore it's worth spending money to do *everything* that needs doing over the next few years, or whether it will be a learning experience leading to another boat in a few years time.

 

[dunedin]

Part of my question (mainly to myself) is whether the Storm is *the* boat that I want for the next 10 years or so, and therefore it's worth spending money to do *everything* that needs doing over the next few years, or whether it will be a learning experience leading to another boat in a few years time.

That depends quite a bit on what you plan to do (eg how much solo or effectively so) - and how flexible your budget is.
Per earlier posts, it is certainly the case that a below deck autopilot makes a huge difference. As would an electric windlass, self tailing winches - and arguably a boat with decent sized fully battened mainsail and slightly smaller jib (rather than a boat which has a huge overlapping genoa - not sure where the Storm fits in that range, I preferred the 3/4 rigged Fulmar).
Whether it is worth upgrading current boat with these is a question you rightly need to consider.

PS. Unlike PVB I definitely do not think centre cockpit is any advantage for solo - and sometimes visibility forward can be worse, and in my experience keeping watch under the jib is one of the biggest challenges solo, with so much else to do.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

My personal opinion is that it depends entirely on your ability and confidence - you don't want a boat that scares you. Size is not really the determining factor IMO, but I personally like around a 40ft AWB give or take a few feet as a nice compromise between living space, comfort and manageability.

 

[Tranona]

Part of my question (mainly to myself) is whether the Storm is *the* boat that I want for the next 10 years or so, and therefore it's worth spending money to do *everything* that needs doing over the next few years, or whether it will be a learning experience leading to another boat in a few years time.

That is the key question. The Storm was designed for the cruise/racer end of the market in the same space as the Sigma 33 for example. It comes from a time when all weather performance with a crew would be high on the priority list and at a time when rigs were still strongly influenced by the IOR which meant masthead with large foresails - the jib is 300sqft and the skinny main 230 - almost the opposite of my Bav 33 with the same total area. It is also half a ton lighter, but has a higher ballast ratio, reflecting its performance orientation. Staying with Westerly, the Fulmar has a fractional rig with main of 253 and jib of 210.

As you have no doubt discovered powerful headsail driven rigs can be hard work, particularly if they have an inner forestay, and need powerful winches (and maybe crews!) to handle the loads. A smaller jib would help without seriously affecting cruising performance. The main at that size should not pose problems with a good stack pack and lazyjacks - really no need for electric winches - and fully battened sail with good cars for easy raising and particularly dropping. As you say, you can't do much about the autopilot. A tiller is right for the boat and an ST 2000 OK for light use, but a 4000/ST1 is really needed for serious use.

If you move on a generation in design you will see a move to wheel steering at this size, orientation towards comfort space and easy handling. Jump to a turn of the century Beneteau 323, Bavaria 32, Jeanneau 32 and you will see significant differences. Lighter displacement, lower ballast ratios, fractional rigs, larger more open cockpits and cabins all of which make them easier to live with. Downsides? of course, not so good in heavier weather, not so rewarding to sail - the emphasis is on easy living rather than demanding sailing.

Is it worth spending money on improving the Storm? Whatever you do will only be marginal, may cost a lot of money and still not deal with the basic issues. The way you describe your sailing plans and crewing suggests a less demanding boat would be more suitable. As ever though, if you change money rears its ugly head and the value of a Storm (or similar) is at the lower end of the range which gets you into boats 10 or 15 years younger, but the chances are such boats will come well equipped with the sort of gear that makes shorthanded sailing easier.

 

[Sandy]

I currently own a 10.1 meter boat (33 feet in old money) and find it ideal for short handed sailing. She has six bunks but you would have to be very familiar with each other. A crew of four is more than adequate.

 

[johnalison]

I'm afraid I do not agree. My previous boat was 50' over deck with various bits hanging over the ends adding to that; she displaced 30 tons. Maneuvering in a marina and docking requires more skill than parking a 22'. Regardless of wind or current, you can't just stick out a leg to fend off or push the bow over by hand, you have to bring her into dock without destroying the dock or sinking your neighbours and the amount of damage you could do in a cock-up would be impressive. The argument that you do not have to reef in a F4 does not hold water either; so you reef in a F6 or 7. By then the sea is pretty lively, even on a big boat and you are fighting a much larger, heavier sail instead. Things just move up in the scale. A designer of my acquaintance and who has designed a number of larger boats said: "At some point its more like operating heavy machinery."

Our present contraption displaces 8.5 tons; it is much the same: there is no jumping, no pushing off while docking and if we hit, we hit and fetch up the insurance papers.

My comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek and intended to limit the tendency of owners of large yachts to patronise those less able to afford their hobby. There is some truth in both arguments, of course. It is much easier to move around the deck of a larger boat when at sea, and the motion for any given sea state is much easier. The business of coming into a berth works both ways. A small boat will be put off course by the merest puff, but when push comes to shove a small boat is easy to manhandle. The physical effort of sailing depends a lot on the equipment in use. Larger boats tend to have powerful, if not electric, winches, and the effort of steering will also vary. My old Sadler 29 was light on the helm and although my HR 34 is well-balanced and also quite light, the lack of shock loads feeding back make it much less tiring.

In the end, many of the advantages of having a larger boat are completely counteracted by the temptation to go out in much worse weather.