Opinions on batteries...

[bobnewbury]

Well - that's it - the domestics are down the pan and I've got to replace them. The thing is, we're off blue water in a couple of years so we might as well make a good job of it.

We currently have 4 x 90 AH 12v batteries. As we are wired to 24v these are arranged as 2 parallel sets of 2 series sets, giving 180 AH @ 24v. These are charged via an adverc battery management system. We intend to fit solar panels & a windcharger in the next year or so.

Given that we will have many more current demands when we go away, I'd like to have more amps available. Assuming a 50% discharge rate, I'd look to a capacity of about 225 AH.

There was an article in the yachting press recently arguing that there was no significant advantage to be gained from most deep cycle/gel/maintenance free batteries and that the best thing was to go for ordinary automotive batteries and replace them every four years or so.

So - any comments or suggestions?

 

[kgi]

disagree with the auto battery idea completely, if you go this route you are asking for trouble when you go cruising, i did it and it is a mistake, i had batteries die in barbados and the cost of a new battery was over70 pounds and that was just a bog standard engine battery!!!!! if you are a monohull i would go with L16s if you have the space to put them, if you have refrigeration in the tropics your batteries are always playing catch up, the new wind generator from air marine is a beauty, and they have cured all the problems with the earlier versions, its now more powerful, quieter and the blades dont fray like they used to, solar panels, go with siemens or kyocera get the 75s as a minimum, west marines web site has useful info on batteries etc, and another one worth looking at is realgoods.com cheers keith

 

[ccscott49]

I useed semi deep cycle, wet sealed, batteries, used for long distance trucks, which have to run all the goodies for truckers to have sleeping units etc. I have a 330ah 24v bank, six 110ah 12v, My boat is very power hungry, with two fridges and a freezer running through an inverter. I use a sterling smart charger for the engine driven alternator and a smart charger for shore supply or generator, I've had these abtteries onboard fopr three years now and they are perfect, cost me £35 each, because I bought ten, six for domestic and four normal service for my engine starting, which are charged, by a normal controlled alternator. They are also perfect, even though the batteries are sealed, I have arranged it to be able to check the level, they are fine. These batteries are really only good quality automotive batteries, you don't need to buy really expensive batteries, a lot of crap is talked about them! The article in PBO or YM whichever it was, makes a lot of sense, I have never bought expensive marine or sealed gel or any other super battery and, touch wood, never had a problem with batteries, they normally last up to seven years onboard, which isn't bad, as far as I'm conserned. If you can mange without solar and wind, wait until you get to the states and buy them there, 1/3rd of the price! Don't bother with wind if you are coming to the med!

 

[kgi]

its not crap just a different opinion

 

[vyv_cox]

The PBO article made a lot of sense. The argument was that no batteries are specifically intended for marine use. Maintenance free and gel sealed are OK for normal rates of charge such as in automotive use but are destroyed by high charging rates. Leisure batteries are only slightly more robust than ordinary ones and true deep cycle ones are horrendously expensive and big. Therefore the logical approach is to buy the cheapest, as they will take the abuse for pretty much the longest. I have used either leisure or automotive type for years with good results.

 

[pvb]

The best-kept secret is...

The best-kept secret about batteries is that you can never have enough of them. Forget expensive gel and deep-cycle types, just pack in as many as you can. It's cheaper to use more ordinary batteries than fewer fancy batteries. The real killer for batteries is the percentage depth of discharge. The bigger the overall Ah capacity, the lower the percentage discharge for a given drain, and therefore the batteries will last longer. The other advantage of a big battery bank is that it's much easier to recharge it.

I have around 750Ah capacity (at 12v) on my boat, and never have any concerns over battery power. Like you, I have an Adverc controller on my alternator. I also have a Link 10 battery monitor, which is the only easy way to discover what's actually happening to the batteries. I use sealed maintenance-free Delco 2000 batteries, but any reasonable quality lead-acid batteries are OK, as long as you don't discharge them excessively.

For your boat, I'd suggest having at least 400-500Ah capacity at 24v. This should help ensure that you minimise any battery problems in far-off places. You might consider getting a Link 10 too.

PS Welcome back to the forum!

 

[ccscott49]

I said a lot of crap is talked, not that what you said was crap, touchy!!

 

[HaraldS]

My setup is almost like Colin’s: 6 semi deep cycle batteries, except they are slightly larger at 140Ah each, giving me about 420Ah at 24V. While this may sound a lot, it really is just barely enough, as pvb says; you can never have enough capacity.

Depending on how you use your batteries, you can really only utilize a fraction of the stated capacity. These semi deep cycle batteries shouldn’t really be discharged to less than 50%, still I end up going down to 45% quite frequently and sometimes even down to 40%. I’m aware that this will significantly shorten their life expectancy, yet I put these batteries in with the assumption of having them for 4 years and then use something better before heading off into areas where replacement would be hard and very expensive to get. Now they are three years are doing fine.

Since I’m rarely connecting to shore power, I need to charge the batteries either from the engine or from the generator. If I don’t have to run my engine for many hours for other reasons, I will most likely not fully charge the batteries, as the last 15% of charging are very slow and tedious, if you want to avoid gassing.

If you really go between those two margins, (50% to 85%), you end up with 35% of the stated capacity for your cycle use. In my case that is just 147Ah. My need, with refrigeration and instruments and … seems to be pretty constantly at about 170Ah in 22 hours, hence I’m using the batteries quite regularly between 45% and 85% charge.

Two hours is about what I need to replenish a day of use, but depends a bit on how I do it. The generator runs a 75A charger, so it does take a bit longer then the two hours and definitely more than I need the generator for the water maker running in parallel. If I do it via engine, then I can charge faster as it has a 135A 24V alternator with smart regulator.

So far I have been able to fully charge at least every 10th time, because I needed to motor for some hours, and that is another thing the batteries need from time to time to survive.

This year I will have a towing generator, which I expect to cover about half my needs, so that I should be able to run the generator shorter or less frequently; we shall see.

As I said, my plan was to replace the batteries with something more robust and lasting when leaving the civilized world, but it would have to be something that can also take the aggressive charge. Most Gel batteries cannot do that, but there are some types, off course more expensive, that can. Also the AGM batteries are better than anything in accepting aggressive charging, and again very expensive and available only in limited forms and sizes.

Here in European waters I would certainly stick to the cheap trucking batteries. I might choose Gel or AGM for my long cruise, but I have some more time to think about that.

 

[oldsaltoz]

G’day Bob.
If you decide to go with the truck (Lead / acid) batteries, be aware that if they are not the sealed type they will produce a very harmful and dangerous gas, all be it in small amounts.

Avagoodweekend Old Salt Oz……

 

[ccscott49]

Even if they are the "sealed type" they produce gas!!

 

[andyball]

I used to use cheap "leisure" batteries to run lights inside my van & to start customer's engines......it would be run totally flat perhaps several times each week,sometimes each day....lasted about 3 yrs each as I recall, but usually gave next to no warning of failure.

 

[ccscott49]

With that abuse! wow and they still lasted about three years! Thats about ten years of normal boat type use, I never allow my batteries onboard, get below about 50% the inverter switches off, if the volatge under load falls below about 23 volts, so that won't flatten them and both fridges wont allow themselves to drail the batteries totally, I do a lot of m,otoring, due to the boat being a motorsailer! but int he med most boats do a fair amount of motoring, if I could afford a solar array of about 120 watts at 24 volts, I wouldn't need to run the genny much atall, especially when I'm not there, but you're talking almost £2000 for that kind of array and controller, that buys a lot of diesel for my genny, in fact about 10 years worth! if not more, so apart from green issues and quiet, mine is very quiet
I also intend to fit two more of the type I have to get to 440 a/h bank
anyway. I'll stick with the genny and oldish style cheap lead acid batteries. If your cruising across the pond, load new batteries and if they after a few years start to pack in, go to the states, they're as cheap as chips there!

 

[ToMo]

What Genny did you buy and where from? please Colin gonna need one soon (I hope!)
TôMö

 

[andyball]

battery abuse

That's why I mentioned it.....treated them badly but got several years out of each one, albeit with next to no warning of imminent (total) failure....these were the top-uppable type, and they needed it.

 

[ccscott49]

My original, was in the boat, with 10 hours on it, Fisher Panda. 4 kw, I had nothing but trouble with it, it finally did 60 hours, cost me £1700 in repairs, went back to the factory once, back to the suppliers twice, they spent a lot of time and money on it aswell! It finally went back to the factory to be updated, they found it had ingested its own cooling water, so was scrap!! Fisher Panda UK, were very good about the whole thing, as was I actually, rather unlike me! they supplied me with the latest model at a well reduced price, I was still well out of pocket, but this new one is all fresh water cooled, and all the bugs they had with the old type, mine was 1993, whave been ironed out, the new unit is excellent and reliable, so far! their service to me was always good, I think I was just unlucky to get a bad unit, which of course shouldn't happen, especially with a german built unit!! But there it is, I would now reccomend this new unit, can't say fairer than that. If I was to do this again, I would probably go for a 1500 rpm unit, instead of the 3000 rpm one, less strain on components, but I would have had to modify mountings wiring etc. etc. so went for this new 4 kw one.

 

[bignige]

I work with a guy who is an area engineer for fisher pander and they are fitted into TV brodcast units run by BT and from bits I have discussed with him they are VGood, even with some of the idiots who run the wagons trying their hardest to destroy everything they touch

 

[bignige]

As you probably know most traction (automotive batteries) are not designeed to be flattened when this occurs the plates inside the battery warp. Deep cycle leisure batteries have thicker plates to allow for this warpping of the plates.

Therefore if you can ensure that you donot flatten them to often of seriously reduce their power in then traction batteries are fine

also a point to make is some/most leisure batteries are not designed to start an engine the power draw for heater plugs and stater can damage these

sterling power mangement sytem which are great by the way who ever mentioned these

I have seen alot of boats where traction batteries are fitted for the domestic side and they go down in around 12 month (usually after the warranty runs out), when I say go down the cappacity is reduced enough to cause problems.

As for a name ELECSOL seem to have a good product which is sutable for both starting and domestic and above all the are guaranteed for 5 years

Warranty service seems good to

 

[Guest]

Here in the US, I use 6 - 6 Volt Golf Cart batteries arranged into three banks of 12V. Each bank has 225 AH, giving me a total of 675 AH. Conventional wisdom here is that the best batteries to use on sailboats for house batteries are deep cycle batteries...though not necessarily marine batteries.

In addition to the deep cycle batteries I am installing two dedicated standard starting batteries for my Perkins 4-108.
This arrangement requires battery isolators and a high amperage alternator.

I realise that there are pros and cons to different types of batteries, but each has to decide which they prefer, but given the
nature of starting batteries compared to deep cycle.....deep cycle batteries make better house batteries, and starting batteries
are best being used for starting engines. At least thats how it works with batteries made in the US.

 

[ccscott49]

"Traction batteries", are not for engine starting, automotive use, true traction batteries are used for things like golf carts, electric milk floats and the like and are designed to be discharged and charged slowly, (overnight) You are getting mixed up, with normal automotive batteries, which are designed to give high current for a short time, then be re-charged quickly, as for starting motor vehicles. Leisure batteries, are normally just high quality automotive batteries and can be used for both purposes.

 

[ccscott49]

Yes, fresh water cooled ones were always quite reliable, but salt water cooled always had problems, as was seen on a multitude of them, thay had a bad reputation, in the 4 kw model, look back at the reports in YW, a couple of years ago refereence the equipment used on the ARC. They now use total fresh water cooled units, which so far has been fine for me and is a vaste improvement on the old one. The old one was an unmitigated disaster, ask your mate about Mr. Scotts' in Dartmouth, on Englander.