Oceanis 43 v Sun Odyssey 44i

[pipemma]

Yes, I know Beneteau v Jeanneau is the oldest of old chestnuts... Nevertheless, we have an opportunity to buy one of other of these boats through a charter company ownership deal. We are fully aware of the "cost" side of production boats operating on charter, but effectively deferring running costs for 5 years works for us financially and, above all, gives us the opportunity to advance our life(style) plans by at least 5-10 years.

The very long term dream is to spend 6 months of the year on a/the yacht and 6 months in the mountains. Short-term, a few weeks a year is all we can manage anyway, and medium-term, a month or 2 at a time is conceivable. We would want to be based in the Med, but with the ability to head to the Canaries/Madeira occasionally or even a once-in-a-blue-moon transat, so in terms of usage a production boat should do everything we want.

So, given the rambling above, I was wondering whether anyone has any experience of either of these two fairly new models (or indeed their predecessors)? We have the opportunity to view both this weekend so will be able to have a look at initial build quality for ourselves, realising they've not been around long enough yet to have a built up a history of durability or otherwise... Many thanks in advance for any thoughts!

(If this should be in the Scuttlebutt forum, please feel free to move it!)

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Not sailed either of these models, but own a Beneteau, and sailed plenty of both ranges.....

As a massive generalisation, the Oceanis' tend to be a bit more cruisy.... tend to be a tiny bit larger below, but won't be quite as quick as the Odysseys.... but its really really marginal.

I prefer the cockpit syle of the Oceanis, but I have plenty of friends who are quite the reverse.... the cockpits on Odysseys are generally massive!

If you intend to spend long periods aboard yourselves, pay attention to storage space...

I don't like the modern trend towards tiny chart tables.... while electronics are becoming more and more sophisticated, and thus evolving smaller chart tables, IMHO, a decent sized chart table serves a purpose still, and is also useful when in port... and on a boat of 40' plus, there should be space for it... so perhaps a consideration

Both are, by modern volume productions standards, well built.

Personally, if it was me, my decision would be made on which interior layout suited me/charter requirements the best, as I don't think you'll find a great deal to choose between them in terms of space and performance.... and of course... price!

 

[Tranona]

Bit like choosing between a Mondeo and a Passat. Either will do the job. Main difference in equipment is one has a grey engine and one has a green one! Otherwise they are both aimed at similar markets. They stand up well to intensive charter use because that is what they were designed for. In the end the choice will probably come down to such things as layout, storage and "style"

More important when buying this way is to see how the boats are managed. I have been through the process with a Bavaria. Make sure you use your own boat at least once a year. Try to base it in a low stress location like the Ionian where sailing bits get little wear. Biggest problems are with electrics, water systems, fridges and of course loos/holding tanks. The worst part of the experience is the handover at the end. The contract should have new sails because the original (poor) ones will be knackered. Visit your boat at least twice in the last year so that problems are identified and fixed while the boat is still in charter. Allow at least a week for the handover as you will find your needs suddenly become low priority for the company!

Without wishing to sound negative, you may wish to consider other ways of achieving your plans. While there are merits in charter management schemes, they can be very restrictive and you may not be able to get the pattern of usage of your own boat in the way you would like. The economics are not as good as they used to be (even ignoring the low value of the pound) because residual values have fallen considerably. When we bought ours in 2001 we could reasonably have expected, based on past values 65%+ of new cost. This is now more typically 50% and the market is stuffed with retired charter boats. Of course this may change in the future, but I think unlikely.

If you are expecting a minimum of 4-5 weeks use a year you may find it more cost effective to buy a secondhand boat and pay the running costs. Just to give you an idea of the price gap. A new Bavaria 34 is £94k and a 38 3 cabin £111k ex VAT to charter standard. My 37 3 cabin is on the market for under £50k ex VAT. Of course, you would not get a new boat - but you are actually not buying a new boat but a 6 season old boat with an option to use it during the first 6 seasons.

You need to be be very firm in your long term plans to tie yourself in in that way!

 

[pipemma]

Thanks both for the input.

We have considered the alternatives quite thoroughly and financially this deal does seem to stack up best for us, even allowing for charter wear and tear and depreciation.

Useful tip about making sure new sails are in the contract, thanks. One of the boats on offer would be based in Croatia, the other in the Ionian - should that difference also influence the decision-making process in terms of relative stress on the boat? We will be viewing them at the charter base so will have the opportunity (and indeed were offered it anyway) of at the same time looking at boats of all ages in the fleet which would hopefully give us a clearer picture of what to expect in terms of the "hard life" the boats have (given that this pre-season time is probably the best-case scenario).

We would also be looking at keeping the boat after the charter term, so whilst resale values are always something to consider carefully, they are less likely to be a killer criterion. I failed to mention we are paid in CHF, the boat is priced in GBP and the exchange rate is at record levels in our favour so if the pound strengthens over the years, the depreciation could easily be wiped out

Tranona, having been through the process, what else would you recommend we look out for? Wear and tear we know to expect; depreciation is a bit of an unpredictable imponderable; we are aware it means a 5-6 year commitment to the existing way of life. Other than the handover, do you have any regrets? Are these programmes the sort of thing not to touch with a 20 ft boathook, or are they perfectly fine if you go into it with your eyes wide open and it suits your circumstances?

 

[mlthomas]

I like the mondeo and passat analogy. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
We looked at these and a couple of others and have just placed the order for the passat, or was it the mondeo.
We opted for the Beneteau, appreciate that this was our choice and I am clearly not saying it is better than the Jeanneau, just slightly different
We preferred the layout on the two cabin version, equipment etc. as it meets our current and future needs however one thing that was really in its favour was the excellent service we have received from the Beneteau dealer which we had not received from the Jeanneau dealer – although we would have still gone for the benny just bought it somewhere else.
Which ever you go for, it will be the right decision and it will be great and you’ll love it.
Good luck which ever one you go for

 

[Tranona]

No, no regrets about things that are in our control. What has stuffed us is the exchange rate which has increased costs by 30-40% in the last couple of years. We bought our boat through Kiriacoulis and paid 48% with no income but all costs met. Had a minimum of two holidays a year which more than paid for the interest charges on the money we borrowed.

Don't know who you are going with, but I think there is a risk attached to all of them. In Greece the boat will have to be owned by a Greek company, although I think K now has a scheme where that is owned by owners rather than them which gives you more security. My contract was a "delayed delivery" type which meant that I did not get any title until the end. In the event no problem, but not sure I would do it again! You also need to be clear about the VAT payment if you do intend keeping it in the EU afterwards. The company will reclaim all VAT and then charge you VAT at handover (unless you are exporting it). On mine I paid VAT on the original contract value, but as I paid in DM got a bit stuffed on the Euro base value! With K, boats that are sold at full price have VAT at 50% of contract value. Understand this is what is agreed with the Greek authorities. Anyway, the message is, know how it will be dealt with so you don't get a shock at the end.

As to location, The advantage of the Ionian is the strong infrastructure, much run by Brits, good access and good facilities. Some charter operators are pulling out of Croatia because it has become crowded, expensive and difficult to operate.

BTW the point about residual values is that, although you don't plan to sell until you have had your full cycle, it does make the option of not taking the boat at the end potentially expensive.

Hope this helps

 

[pipemma]

Thanks Tranona. We are aware of the VAT issue; in this case it is paid on the book depreciated value at the end of the term. The lack of operating costs should cover that and a large chunk of the loan principal. Evidently even if title doesn't pass to you until the end, it is possible (for a charge) to have a lien put on the boat so that if the charter co goes belly-up, you are not just a creditor, but right at the top of the list on your boat. Evidently most people don't do that, but it's nice to know it's an option.

MLT, thanks for your view too. On paper the Jeanneau appeals more, but I've heard several people say they chose the Beneteau over it. But then that's why we're going to go and eyeball them.

The analogy is a good one - and let's not forget the Mondeo has been named car of the year before now /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif In other words, horses for courses.

ETA: does anyone else start worrying big time when heart and head seem to be aligned on a big decision?! I'm looking for the catch...

 

[Sailfree]

I have owned 3 charter boats. 2 Dufours for 3 yrs each and currently a Jeanneau for 5 yrs.

Agree with what others have said. To me the deciding factor was having had trouble with Volvo folding props/ gearbox and a 2040 engine I would only go for Yanmar- hence Jeanneau. Current owner of our last Dufour had the saildrive leg shear off! I agree very unusual occurance but following his ongoing and my previous problems with Volvo he replace complete unit with a yanmar. Boat still on charter after a further 4 years and no probs!

Not sure whether its still relevant but Jeanneau used to make their boats with a hull and GRP internal strengthening ribs and stringers (conventional build) Beneteau make their boats with a hull and internal strength is gained by bonding a shaped (egg crate) internal moulding to the hull. Impossible to inspect without drilling holes for any grounding damage/debonding. Its a cost effective way of boat building and I think Dufour have now copied Beneteau.

Our boat was put on the rocks last year (sh*t happens ) by a commercial yachtmaster!! It was surveyed and damaged areas easily accessed, cut out and repaired. properly done repaired GRP is stronger than the original. For a charter boats with varying skippers skills I would only go for conventional build (as my Jeanneau) so that any damage can be easily identified and repaired.

For private ownership I would have no problems with Beneteau build method but still choose a Jeanneau for Yanmar engine/gearbox.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tranona]

Think the engine problems are just the luck of the draw. My Volvo 2030 saildrive has performed faultlessly for 8 seasons now with the exception of a replacement head gasket under warranty in the first year. Beneteaus are conventional shaft drives. Not that I think it makes any real difference. Saildrives take about 50% of the market and 1000s are in operation on charter boats. Folding props are a different matter and not sure I would fit one to a charter boat through choice. KISS rules on some things!

Easy repairs is perhaps re-assuring, however, damage on that scale is rare. Most damage is bumps a scrapes from mooring in congested harbours, so though annoying and unsightly is not usually structural.

 

[Sailfree]

[ QUOTE ]
Think the engine problems are just the luck of the draw. !


[/ QUOTE ]

Charter boats get heavier use and weaknesses found first.

When I started 70% boats on our charter fleet had Volvo, 30% Yanmar now in 2009 its 75% Yanmar and 25% Volvo.

My Volvo seized after 581hrs current Yanmar at 1800hrs. Engine seized after I had used it for 9 days so I know it was not misuse.

Its Volvo attitude though that really P*sses me off they just don't want to know. Sorry but once bitten etc I would never have a boat with a Volvo especially for the charter market.

 

[Tranona]

Well, my Volvo has done around 2500 hours with no problems! Volvos dominate the charter market in Greece because the two most popular boats are Bavaria and Beneteau. Not knocking Yanmar as I have one in my other boat.

I can understand you being p****d off with poor service and negative attitude. But for every one of you there will be hundreds of happy owners! Don't think Beneteau and Bavaria plus most of the "quality" Scandinavian builders would continue fitting Volvos if there was a systemic issue of reliability or life.

 

[Sailfree]

Purely scuttlebutt but I believe the Monteray (Spell!)motor boats have stopped using Volvos because of their attitude to problems.

When looking at possible yachts I now often get a reply We are going to fit Yanmar in future.

I think the trend is for more manufacturers to fit Yanmar.

 

[mlthomas]

Last boat had a pair of d4 260 hp on shafts, had two problems /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif, one engine had a water leak from the front of the water pump, Volvo not interested - wouldn't send anybody to look at or repair it as we are in Cumbria /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif, we could get a volvo agent to come and inspect it but had to pay for all travelling time etc, fixed it myself and it was a failed bearing that caused vibration which moved the seal enough to leak. Second fault, the port engine hour counter clicked on faster than the starboard engine - wierd but true - again, not interested, this time it - no it can't do that, bye. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif Sold the boat with odd counters and an explanation. Both faults while under volvo's warrenty.
Didn't help buying a boat from a dealer in Hampshire either!
Next, servicing a cool £1000 per service /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif, so got the bits myself from a discount volvo part dealer (Keypart - excellent service) still cost the best part of £350, yes thats basically oil and filters, but they do say volvo on them.
Reliability - 100%, never smoked or anything.
If it were the decider between two boats (given the thread we are on) - if it were the only thing, and the only thing then I would go for the non Volvo.

 

[bob234]

One point, check the length. The Oceanis 43 is, I think, less than 42 feet LOA but I don't know what the Jeanneau is. Not suggesting it's a deciding factor but you might be getting slightly more boat for your money with the Jeanneau.

I have been a very happy Beneteau owner and have chartered Jeanneau's several times and I agree with others that there is little to choose between them.

I am also a happy Volvo engine user in my current boat but some of the stories above might push me towards the Jeanneau.

Good luck!

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Tranona]

Your engines are completely different animals from the ones we are talking about. Does not excuse bad service and lack of interest, but you have to keep these things in perspective.

The yacht auxilliary market is dominated by Volvo (actually mostly Perkins, either made in Japan or Peterborough) and Yanmar. Between them I guess they have 80-90% of the market. Some builders use one or the other exclusively but many use either depending on installation. In these situations you will often find switching going on as the manufacturers compete for volume. However, you cannot ignore the fact that both are good, both have problems from time to time and you get some unhappy owners of both.

Volvo seem to get most stick, probably deserved for their lack of response to problems, but equally thousands of their engines are operating world wide without any problems.

Like my original analogy there is not a lot to choose between them and there are more important things to consider with the boat. I know some people have strong vews one way or the other, but it is not entirely rational, although often based on specific experience.

I have no connection with Volvo or Yanmar and have had good service from both makes.

 

[mlthomas]

I'm hoping for good service from Yanmar on the benny when it comes, having the local dealer will help too.
I was only commenting on our experience which could have been better, however I never had a second thought heading to see with them.