Not really a live aboard question, but I think the people with the knowledge to answer it might be found here.

[billskip]

Thirty years ago, back before the madness overtook us, I had loads of seafaring friends who lived in Spain. I have an idea (probably wrong!) that a seafarer is domiciled for tax but not actually taxed. She carries an Asean passport and belongs to the same union as I do ie Nautilus.

When you say "not actually taxed" it would seem to me you don't know, or are not being told the full story.
It is up to the individual to volunteer a tax return to be taxed unless employed by a company that pays her tax and social security.

 

[Paddy Fields]

We (the majority on here being Brits) are non-EU, not non-European!!!

I’m not totally clued up on East Asian passports….

In general, british passport holders can go and live in the EU, provided we are willing to pay our taxes there.

So if that is true of her passport, then yes it makes sense to ask on here

 

[Kukri]

When you say "not actually taxed" it would seem to me you don't know, or are not being told the full story.
It is up to the individual to volunteer a tax return to be taxed unless employed by a company that pays her tax and social security.

You may have missed the remark about my belonging to the same union. Start here for the UK; most nations are similar:

Seafarers Earnings Deduction: tax relief if you work on a ship

 

[billskip]

You may have missed the remark about my belonging to the same union. Start here for the UK; most nations are similar:

Seafarers Earnings Deduction: tax relief if you work on a ship

No I didn't miss it, but I believe she is obliged to submit a zero account. If not then she will have a document stating she is exempt.
Edit.
Just to add to that spain are really tightening up on tax.
It is now illegal to do any cash transactions over €1000. Any transaction over this amount must be by transfer.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

In general, british passport holders can go and live in the EU, provided we are willing to pay our taxes there.

In general you need a visa to do so. I'm not sure about this scenario where they aren't actually working in Spain though.

No I didn't miss it, but I believe she is obliged to submit a zero account. If not then she will have a document stating she is exempt.
Edit.

A friend who was until recently with P&O paid tax and then reclaimed it somehow at the year-end by demonstrating they'd been out of the country for more than half the year. But that was the UK.

 

[Kukri]

Yes, once one gets away from coasters and from small motor yachts which sometimes have “informal arrangements”, (and which is why though Elizabeth is happy to do sailing racing boat deliveries on mere maxis, she wouldn’t be seen dead on a motor yacht of less than 150 metres) the usual arrangement deep sea is that the manning agency doers the tax return and gives the seafarer an “NT” certificate, or in the case of ferries the PAYE certificate.

 

[syvictoria]

So if that is true of her passport, then yes it makes sense to ask on here

I was referring to a pp which inferred (at least as I read it) that 'we' were no longer European!

 

[Kukri]

I was referring to a pp which inferred (at least as I read it) that 'we' were no longer European!

Let us not lay a course in that direction lest They Who Must Not Be Named detect a faint whiff of Current Affairs and banish us all to the Outer Darkness!

 

[Bilgediver]

Yes, once one gets away from coasters and from small motor yachts which sometimes have “informal arrangements”, (and which is why though Elizabeth is happy to do sailing racing boat deliveries on mere maxis, she wouldn’t be seen dead on a motor yacht of less than 150 metres) the usual arrangement deep sea is that the manning agency doers the tax return and gives the seafarer an “NT” certificate, or in the case of ferries the PAYE certificate.

Yes we operated the NT system for our UK resident employees working offshore and agreed the requirements with the tax office so that the NT code could be used. There are conditions that have to be met.
There used to be another route where the employee could make a tax claim for a full financial year in retrospect. I know of crews who delayed their return to the UK from ships where they needed a few extra days to qualify. The tax offices are very helpful regarding these matters however I am not sure where seafarers tax is dealt with. It was East Kilbride. There must be a current seafarer around here that is up to date.

 

[dgadee]

Why are mariners not taxed? What's the thinking?

EU and international organizations say they would not get staff if they paid national tax, but I find that hard to believe. They used to say the janitor at the European Patent Office was paid the same as an examiner at the Gernan patent office next door

 

[Koeketiene]

Why are mariners not taxed? What's the thinking?

EU and international organizations say they would not get staff if they paid national tax, but I find that hard to believe. They used to say the janitor at the European Patent Office was paid the same as an examiner at the Gernan patent office next door

I worked for NATO for a number of years.
Whilst I did not pay national tax, I paid for everything else.
Pension contributions were substantial, health insurance ditto, etc...
My monthly net income was higher as when I paid national tax, but not much higher.

 

[Kukri]

Why are mariners not taxed? What's the thinking?

EU and international organizations say they would not get staff if they paid national tax, but I find that hard to believe. They used to say the janitor at the European Patent Office was paid the same as an examiner at the Gernan patent office next door

Back in the nineteen twenties the United States passed the 19th Amendment and banned alcohol.

American passenger ships were of course “dry”, British, French, German, Italian and Swedish ships would sell you a drink as soon as the three mile limit was crossed. The consequences were those that anyone would expect. American shipowners registered their passenger ships in Panama and sold drinks…

Things went from there and in the shipping boom brought on by the Korean War American owners started to register ships in Honduras and Liberia as well as Panama. They were very soon followed by the Greeks who were worried about the Greek Civil War, and in due course by everyone else, because the “flags of convenience” didn’t charge corporation tax on the ship’s earnings, nor did they charge income tax on the crew’s earnings.

Convenience flag ships were commonly newer, bigger and much much more comfortable.

Inevitably owners in the other old maritime nations abandoned their national flags and the officers and ratings were extremely happy to get out of the tax net.

Ultimately the old flags brought in their own
forms of “tonnage tax” and waived the income tax on seafarers because otherwise they would have had no ships…?

 

[dgadee]

Back in the nineteen twenties the United States passed the 19th Amendment and banned alcohol.

American passenger ships were of course “dry”, British, French, German, Italian and Swedish ships would sell you a drink as soon as the three mile limit was crossed. The consequences were those that anyone would expect. American shipowners registered their passenger ships in Panama and sold drinks…

Things went from there and in the shipping boom brought on by the Korean War American owners started to register ships in Honduras and Liberia as well as Panama. They were very soon followed by the Greeks who were worried about the Greek Civil War, and in due course by everyone else, because the “flags of convenience” didn’t charge corporation tax on the ship’s earnings, nor did they charge income tax on the crew’s earnings.

Convenience flag ships were commonly newer, bigger and much much more comfortable.

Inevitably owners in the other old maritime nations abandoned their national flags and the officers and ratings were extremely happy to get out of the tax net.

Ultimately the old flags brought in their own
forms of “tonnage tax” and waived the income tax on seafarers because otherwise they would have had no ships…?

That must be a problem when you are sacked? Who pays your welfare costs?

 

[Kukri]

That must be a problem when you are sacked? Who pays your welfare costs?

Welcome to the rather thoroughly globalised world of the merchant seafarer. The practical answer is like this:

1. If you lose your job because your ship sinks or because your owners go bust, the Maritime Labour Convention requires that a passage back to your own country and a certain amount of pay is covered by your ship’s P&I Club. Evidence of this insurance in the form of certificates form part of your ship’s trading certificates without which she cannot enter port and work cargo.

2. Another certificate which is “almost” a trading certificate is the ship’s “ITF Blue Card”, which is issued by a Trades Union affiliated to the International Transport Federation (which is based in London). This contains a statement that all crew members are employed on terms acceptable to the ITF and these include wage rates and benefits should you be sacked for reasons other than those in (1) above. The ITF have a global network of inspectors who check ships to make sure that all is as it has been agreed to be.

The Blue Card is for “flag of convenience” ships and “national flag” ships carry a “Letter of Compliance” issued by a national Union of that flag - for a British ship that will be either the RMT as in London Underground strikes or Nautilus which is the Anglo-Dutch officers’ Union and which also has yacht crew as members.

Things can still go pear shaped and in that case the last line of defence is the Missions to Seamen/Flying Angel, etc.

I remember booking into the Mariner’s Club in HK and finding it absolutely full of pretty girls from Southeast Asia - Filipinas, Thais, Indonsians etc. Seeing the padre, whom I knew, I said, “I thought the whole idea of these places was to keep men like me away from pretty girls?”

He laughed and said “They are all seafarers! They are the croupiers off the gambling ships, and they come here like anyone else to get some rest and to phone home!”