Norwegian frigate - whoops!

[dom]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

Mechanical issues? But that said I don't remember a VTS system that doesnt check that the ship is serviceable with regards to steering, engine controls functional and masters on the bridge and it's being hand steered, so probably unlikely.

W.

The story in Norway is that Helge Ingstad entered the separation scheme at around 17kts, had its AIS switched to silent which hampered VTS identifying the ship for some moments, then repeatedly failed to respond to a number of increasingly panicked calls from both VTS and the Sola’s pilots, collided with the Sola, had its steering gear destroyed, then mostly drifted onto rocks (poss with the help of some non-directionally stable power).

If that’s right, wow!

 

[Seajet]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

Hard to tell what happened but I agree with Minn, playing at being ' cloaked ' stealth doesn't seem very seamanlike - and if really in stealth mode she wouldn't have radars transmitting...

 

[dom]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

Hard to tell what happened but I agree with Minn, playing at being ' cloaked ' stealth doesn't seem very seamanlike - and if really in stealth mode she wouldn't have radars transmitting...

As I understand it, no question of stealth, just AIS switched to silent. Also agree with Minn on this, after all we all know where the ship is about 1/2 hr later! To be fair, the relevant navy may judge that to be a high-risk time.

 

[Seajet]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

She's a low radar cross section sealth design.

If travelling with no AIS and no nav lights and apparently trying radio silence that to me sounds like they were playing at being ' cloaked '.

I once had a vaguely similar thing years ago, a NATO exercise was taking up most of the Channel between Needles and Cherbourg ( no NTM or keep out zone ) - a German frigate doing ' sprint and drift sub hunting - with a helo dipping sonar, it seems the sub was under us judging by our depthsounder - charged at us then crash stopped, alarming my very experienced crew enough to grab the VHF mic " Warship Foxtrot 28 this is XXX what are your intentions " - no reply, radio silence.

 

[langstonelayabout]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

Thanks Frank.

Why do NATO warships, designed with tiny radar profiles, persist in steaming around with their AIS off, in peacetime, in areas with heavy commercial traffic?

I guess its because that offensive and incoming actions are most effective when they start as a surprise, and switching off instrumentation and sensors is reducing the paths that incoming can follow.

 

[macd]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

I guess its because that offensive and incoming actions are most effective when they start as a surprise, and switching off instrumentation and sensors is reducing the paths that incoming can follow.

Obviously so. But surely that just explains why they have the capability, not why they're using it -- at night, in a confined shipping channel.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

I'm wary of unleashing a wave of Colreg pedantry, but the word is in the thread title so it's probably inevitable

You can only be RAM due to "the nature of [your] work".

Good point. I was trying to remember whether the Hanne Knudsen was RAM or CBD when she pranged that naval prat, and got it wrong. Sorry.

 

[Seajet]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

One thing struck me - while one may have doubts about being stealthy in that situation in the first place, someone showed a lot of presence of mind to turn on the AIS while in a sinking condition, maybe there's a big red switch on the bridge for ' emergency ' but it was a good move.

 

[Minchsailor]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

Norwegians aren't wonderful on Colregs as far as I have observed . Commercial OK, the rest ... not really...

+1 for that. Last year I found the smaller boats went everywhere, except where they were supposed to go.

 

[ShinyShoe]

+1 for that. Last year I found the smaller boats went everywhere, except where they were supposed to go.

Maybe they are used to having to suddenly avoid their own navy frigate that sneaks up on them.

 

[ShinyShoe]

These stealth mode collisions are avoidable without switching off stealth mode...

I can see the logic of needing stealth mode. The logic in busy shipping lanes is harder to justify but if you need the ability in war then you need to practice. So in practice mode you simply need a single secure data feed sending a position every minute. Yes that is technically not stealthy but if you accept that is only enabled for training then you ignore trying to find it as part of the testing how stealthy you are.

Then you need an ops room ashore receiving that feed and able to see radar and AIS of other vessels... And the ability to contact the ship and say either move or go visible.

 

[johnalison]

Maybe they are used to having to suddenly avoid their own navy frigate that sneaks up on them.

One of the risks when sailing the waters north of Gothenberg is that of trying to squeeze between rocks and suddenly finding a powerboat storming round the corner at you. The Swedes are bad enough, but nothing to the Norwegians. Many people imagine that the Scandinavians are a bunch of cuddly pacifists but that isn't how I see them!

 

[dunedin]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

Hmmmm.... outbound tanker in the outbound traffic stream finds inbound warship impaled on its bow.... warship with hole on starboard side...... https://gcaptain.com/video-ais-animation-shows-collision-between-oil-tanker-and-norwegian-frigate/

Looks like the bridge team on Vestbris got a bit of a fright....

May just be a quirk of the AIS recording but it appears that from around 0:35 onwards in that video the tankers’ reported heading starts to diverge from actual COG such that ends up about 110 degrees out from actual track. Is that post impact, slipping sideways, or AIS Heading data being transmitted wrongly?

Either way, if the Frigate was in stealth mode then they have full responsility to keep clear, and didn’t

PS. Quite a few other grey line shipping was heading back from Trondheim around that time - the ones I saw coming up river (shortly after news of the Norway accident), were transmitting on AIS

 

[Frank Holden]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

Worth a read.... http://norwaytoday.info/news/knm-helge-ingstad-warned-by-the-tanker/

........Later, the tanker issues the following message: « Helge Ingstad! Turn!», before they three seconds later laconically state: «We’re colliding, then.»......

 

[Seajet]

Re: Norwegian Colregs

I wonder how they knew it was the Helge Ingstad - head on the name wouldn't be visible, so either had made radio contact by then, or maybe recognised the distinctive shape and as there are / were only 6 inc one in dock maybe just recognised her ?

I'd be surprised if the tanker didn't have night vision, my little boat does.

 

[macd]

These stealth mode collisions are avoidable without switching off stealth mode...

Absolutely. If all those $trillions poured into stealth can't also find a sensible real-world way of testing and training to it, then heaven help us all.

 

[Seajet]

I doubt stealth ships cost all that much to develop - in miltary terms - even the USS Zumwalt, it's things like the B2 bomber with a special cameleon skin finish which take the majority of the dosh I'm sure - I worked with various early versions of stealth kit applied to traditional aircraft but not the specially designed stealth shaped ones.

Whenever the B2 flies around in public in daylght it usually has a traditional fighter nearby with a transponder so people can't measure its RCS; the new F-35 has a built on radar enhancer for peacetime work for the same reason, may have been an idea on the Ingstad...

 

[macd]

I doubt stealth ships cost all that much to develop...

What on earth has that got to do with it? The ships are staggeringly expensive. I'd have thought it worth a few kroner, and a little care, to teach the crew how they work.

 

[Seajet]

Absolutely. If all those $trillions poured into stealth can't also find a sensible real-world way of testing and training to it, then heaven help us all.

" $trillions " was what had to do with it.

 

[pagoda]

What on earth has that got to do with it? The ships are staggeringly expensive. I'd have thought it worth a few kroner, and a little care, to teach the crew how they work.

Never mind the technology.. I'm sure they know who was OOW...?