Norfolk broads

[mjcoon]

Staithe is very common on the Broads which probably
means a dock of some kind. The word doesn't seem to have travelled much from Norfolk/Suffolk.

Yes, it is in my old and etymological dictionaries (but not my big Collins) meaning landing or loading place. Derivations such as Old Norse...

 

[mjcoon]

I was caught out by that but I see that in my dictionary "shoot" is given as an alternative to "chute"! (Parashoot would be even more ambiguous!)

 

[LONG_KEELER]

You've prompted me to look it up in the OED. Seems to be an anglo-saxon word

formerly used in a lot of places but now confined to areas with strong Germanic/anglo-saxon influence, like East Anglia and the North-East

That's excellent thanks.
On the way to the boat today I just put "staithe" in the SatNav .
Only came up with East Anglian street names.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I was caught out by that but I see that in my dictionary "shoot" is given as an alternative to "chute"! (Parashoot would be even more ambiguous!)

There used to be signs along one of the Broomielaw warehouses in Glasgow saying "Warning - Shoots" which I though was a mis-spelling but was perhaps just an unusual but valid alternative.

 

[JumbleDuck]

That's excellent thanks.
On the way to the boat today I just put "staithe" in the SatNav .
Only came up with East Anglian street names.

The only other ones I can think of offhand are "Staithes" in Yorkshire and "Dunston Staiths" in Gateshead, but I think "staith(e)" was very common along the Tyne. Puffing Billy and Wylam Dilly, for example, haulded coal wagons to a staith. Otherwise yes, East Anglia all the way.

 

[LittleSister]

Because the Broads area's rivers are generally surrounded by extensive marshes, anywhere that a river comes close to higher ground there would have been a staithe to facilitate transport, and a village would usually have grown up around or very near it.

Some of the old public staithes remain the responsibility of the local parish council (who vary in the public accesss they now allow), others have ended up in private ownership over the years, by fair means or foul. There are places where it is known from historical records that there was a public staithe at one time, but the whole riverside is now enclosed by private dwellings, or even private moorings and/or slipway, but there aren't accurate enough old maps to say where exactly the public staithe was. In days of old maps weren't needed to locate it, because everyone at the time knew where the staithe was.

There are also waterways in the Broads lost to public navigation. Some of this happened during WW2, when fences and obstructions were put on waterways in case of invasion, and the owners took advantage by continuing to exclude access after the war.

They're also quite keen on the word 'loke' in Norfolk - usually a no-through lane or path leading down to a river or onto the marshes (occasionally, I think, also a narrow cut (waterway) leading off a river to a state or similar). I'd not come across that word before fate drew me to these parts.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The only other ones I can think of offhand are "Staithes" in Yorkshire and "Dunston Staiths" in Gateshead, but I think "staith(e)" was very common along the Tyne. Puffing Billy and Wylam Dilly, for example, haulded coal wagons to a staith. Otherwise yes, East Anglia all the way.

I'm pretty sure that staithe as a noun is in common use in Yorkshire; but that's another part of the old Danelaw. Less common as a placename, but I've always known it's meaning as a place to tie boats up.

 

[Slowboat35]

In Beccles most of the old streets are called .....gate (Newgate, Ballygate, Blyburgate etc) after the Danish word 'gade' (pronn. 'gayder') Beccles was evidently once so Danish, presumably in Saxon times, that it's streets gained Danish suffixes.
Also in Beccles and Lowestoft a lane or track leading to the staithe is callled a score. Don't know the origin of that. Bear in mind that until the 14th century or so the entire broads area was one gigantic tidal estuary extending N of Norwich and up to Bungay/Harleston with the Aldeby 'peninsular' sticking out into it.This would have looked much like Beydon Water does today. Beccles had it's own prolific and probably inshore herring fishery and payed a huge tithe of salted fish to the Abbey at Bury St Edmunds.
In the 14th century Dutch engineers were encouraged to come over to drain the marshes and turn them into productive land, hence the prolific number of Dutch-gabled houses in the area.
So what with Iceni, Romans, Vikings, Normans (Vikings by any other name) and cloggies etc is it any wonder rumours abound about six toes or webbed feet.
One thing for sure we aren't - is interbred!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

In Beccles most of the old streets are called .....gate (Newgate, Ballygate, Blyburgate etc) after the Danish word 'gade' (pronn. 'gayder') Beccles was evidently once so Danish, presumably in Saxon times, that it's streets gained Danish suffixes.
Also in Beccles and Lowestoft a lane or track leading to the staithe is callled a score. Don't know the origin of that. Bear in mind that until the 14th century or so the entire broads area was one gigantic tidal estuary extending N of Norwich and up to Bungay/Harleston with the Aldeby 'peninsular' sticking out into it.This would have looked much like Beydon Water does today. Beccles had it's own prolific and probably inshore herring fishery and payed a huge tithe of salted fish to the Abbey at Bury St Edmunds.
In the 14th century Dutch engineers were encouraged to come over to drain the marshes and turn them into productive land, hence the prolific number of Dutch-gabled houses in the area.
So what with Iceni, Romans, Vikings, Normans (Vikings by any other name) and cloggies etc is it any wonder rumours abound about six toes or webbed feet.
One thing for sure we aren't - is interbred!

Well, you weren't inbred until after the 15th century! I've heard it said that the fens generally were in serious danger of population collapse in the 19th century - falling populations in isolated communities - but that the invention of the bicycle saved it! To this day, people from local families often indulge in the game of working out how they are related - the idea of them not being related isn't considered for a moment! From living here, I can say that despite being flat, the Fens are a difficult country to travel around because you may have to go a long way to find a bridge to get to a place a mile away, and roads don't always go where they should. The shortest road from where I live to Peterborough has one bend that turns through about 120 degrees, and 90 degree bends are ten a penny.

My late wife's family came from a village with two surnames (surnames are a strong indication of relatedness in China), and had an intricate system of customs to avoid in-breeding. For example, if two people with the same surname married, they were obliged to leave the village, even though they might not have common ancestors closer than great grandparents, or even further. Naturally, there was strong exogamous pressure, as half the eligible population was off-limits by custom!

 

[JumbleDuck]

My late wife's family came from a village with two surnames (surnames are a strong indication of relatedness in China), and had an intricate system of customs to avoid in-breeding.

I once visited Stornoway in the company of an academic geneticist who constantly murmured "chromosome damage ... chromosome damage ... chromosome damage ..." as we walked around and saw the locals. A quick look at the "Forthcoming marriages" notices outside the town hall illustrated why. I believe things may be better now that young people can escape the islands more readily.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Really enjoying the contributions on this thread.

Another indicator of boatie-ness in the not too distant past are UK pub names.

There are only three pubs in the UK named "Plough and Sail". Two in Suffolk and one in Essex.

There are 20 "Lighhouse's" , 25 "Jolly Sailor's" and 151 "Anchor's".

Local boy made good H. Nelson Esq, has 66 "Lord Nelson's" and 21 "Nelson's" . I'm guessing most are in East Anglia.

There are two pubs with "yachtsman" in the name. "Yachtsman Pub" in Poole, and the "Yachtsmans Arms" in Brightlingsea Essex. Obviously new boys on the block. Perhaps there are more. My favourites are "Hope and Anchor" . There are 32 of them.

 

[mjcoon]

I once visited Stornoway in the company of an academic geneticist who constantly murmured "chromosome damage ... chromosome damage ... chromosome damage ..." as we walked around and saw the locals. A quick look at the "Forthcoming marriages" notices outside the town hall illustrated why. I believe things may be better now that young people can escape the islands more readily.

I thought the medical abbreviation "NFN" had already come up in this thread, but I can't find it now...

 

[Slowboat35]

Funny, isn't it, how some people seem quite happy poking fun at ridiculous imaginary Norfolk marriage guidance protocols, ludicrously imaginative old-hat genetic features or levels of local 'normality' yet seem utterly oblivious how explosive (let alone how criminal) the same views would be when applied to more favoured groups in the community...

Just pointing out the crazy, irrational inequality in what is deemed 'acceptable' in lighthearted ribbing of cultural features...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not the least bit offended by NFN ribbing or the silly six toes thing etc, what pisses me off is how other "minority groups" , some of which are entire nations get so exercised at merely being spoken of as different even when it's plain they are, but yet get listend to, and even worse compensated or given special treatment to appease their whingeing.

 

[Greemble]

...what pisses me off is how other "minority groups" , some of which are entire nations get so exercised at merely being spoken of as different even when it's plain they are, but yet get listend to, and even worse compensated or given special treatment to appease their whingeing.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but there is a history - a very unpleasant history - attached to that.
Sadly, it's a history that has repeated at fairly regular periods, too, so yes, there is a certain justifiable defensiveness when fingers get pointed.

How are you not aware of this?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Funny, isn't it, how some people seem quite happy poking fun at ridiculous imaginary Norfolk marriage guidance protocols, ludicrously imaginative old-hat genetic features or levels of local 'normality' yet seem utterly oblivious how explosive (let alone how criminal) the same views would be when applied to more favoured groups in the community...

Years ago I compered a travelling show which I introduced as "Suitable for sons, daughters, mums, dads, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, grandparents ... and all the variations on these you find in Norfolk." When we wen to Great Yarmouth my colleagues dared me to use the same line there, and of course I did as I would have without the dare.

After the show a woman came up to me and said "I'm a social worker here and I heard what you said at the start. I just want to say ... you're quite right. The in-breeding here is incredible, especially in the country areas."

By the way, it's well established that the every high levels of marriage between cousins in some communities causes high levels of genetic damage, and nobody claims that it's criminal to acknowledge this.

Relevance to sailing? Genetic problems from consanguineous marriage explain a lot of the deserted communities and island on teh west of Scotland. St Kilda, for example.

 

[Greemble]

Well, you weren't inbred until after the 15th century! I've heard it said that the fens generally were in serious danger of population collapse in the 19th century - falling populations in isolated communities - but that the invention of the bicycle saved it!

The Fens are not the Broads.

The Broads were dug out in the Medieval period and flooded during the 14th Century, after which boats were much in use by many, if not most of the people living in & around the area.

Rivers & lakes have been used as highways for many centuries before that, so I' not really feasible that those living in most of the Eastern half of Norfolk would have been isolated.

 

[Habebty]

Having lived and worked in Norfolk for the last 36 years, I can honestly say I have never come across any dodgy looking genetic issues amongst my native neighbours!
Now, the Fen is another matter?‍?‍ ?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Having lived and worked in Norfolk for the last 36 years ...

Foreigner.

 

[The Q]

Relevance to sailing? Genetic problems from consanguineous marriage explain a lot of the deserted communities and island on teh west of Scotland. St Kilda, for example.

St Kilda had a stable population for centuries until a visiting ship brought Small pox, in the late 1700s this devastated the population. of 200ish . the problem was only about three in a hundred children survived more than a few months after birth this was due to Lock Jaw. and no medical services. The population dropped to 112 by 1851, 72 by 1861 When a nurse arrived on the Island in the late 1800s the population started to recover.

However during WW1 there was a naval base on the island and the locals discovered money, being paid for work and food other than sheep and seagulls.. That combined with losing a lot of men on the boat to Boray, whjch capsized that left the population down to 36 .. And so the islanders asked to be removed from the island..
in the old days the Minister kept a book on relationships between everyone on the island.. and if you were too close you couldn't marry...

 

[Little Dipper]

Having taken my boat off the Thames for reasons you can find in my previous posts you will find the upper Broads quite delightful

Please can I recommend the Martham Boat Building and Development Company. They have a very decent slipway and parking facilities at a competitive and reasonable price. They also rent out a few riverside cottages so you can moor your boat securely adjacent the cottage. If Martham BB&D are booked up there are many other riverside cottages for hire nearby.

If you slip at Martham you have the great expanse of Hickling Broad to sail on and Hickling Broad is one of the best places on the Broads IMHO.

However, if you want to motor down the River Thurne to explore other parts of the Broads you will have to step your mast at Potter Heigham to get under that notorious bridge there.

There is also a possibility that you could motor your boat around to Barton Broad and sail there. I am sure that the Ludham Bridge Boatyard could fit you in to leave the boat there overnight for a reasonable charge and you could get a taxi back to your cottage. You will have to step your mast at Ludham Bridge too.

Once again, Richardson's at Stalham offer free overnight moorings to visiting boats and you can get a taxi back from there too.

{Edit} Just forgot, Martham BB&D can also issue you with a temporary registration on the spot too. They are a very friendly helpful boatyard that will value your business.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Regards.

LD.