Non-boaty - car seat rules?

[prv]

It's finally time to replace my 1999 Polo (twin to Dylan's). I've found a couple of interesting possible replacements which have the back converted into a van-like space as a commercial vehicle, and as it's years since the back seats in the Polo have been sat in, I'm seriously considering this kind of car-derived van.

However, I'm a little reluctant to completely give up the possibility of taking passengers in the back, even though I so rarely do it. I've seen a couple of small vans for sale with rear-seat conversions - all after-market because I understand that if the manufacturer offers them then it's not a van for tax purposes or something. I'd be interested in doing the same, either buying or (I have a welder) converting or building from scratch. They needn't be especially comfortable as use would be so infrequent, and they'd usually live in my shed. The vehicles I've looked at have hefty tie-down rings which I think are bolted to the original seat mountings, so I'd bolt the seat frame on there when required for use.

No doubt there are many rules in this area, and I do want to keep things legal, so I'm hoping some knowledgeable person here can enlighten me as to what's required.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[VicS]

It's finally time to replace my 1999 Polo (twin to Dylan's). I've found a couple of interesting possible replacements which have the back converted into a van-like space as a commercial vehicle, and as it's years since the back seats in the Polo have been sat in, I'm seriously considering this kind of car-derived van.

However, I'm a little reluctant to completely give up the possibility of taking passengers in the back, even though I so rarely do it. I've seen a couple of small vans for sale with rear-seat conversions - all after-market because I understand that if the manufacturer offers them then it's not a van for tax purposes or something. I'd be interested in doing the same, either buying or (I have a welder) converting or building from scratch. They needn't be especially comfortable as use would be so infrequent, and they'd usually live in my shed. The vehicles I've looked at have hefty tie-down rings which I think are bolted to the original seat mountings, so I'd bolt the seat frame on there when required for use.

No doubt there are many rules in this area, and I do want to keep things legal, so I'm hoping some knowledgeable person here can enlighten me as to what's required.

Cheers,

Pete

I thought the tax rules were based on whether or not there are windows behind the driver. ..... May have changed of course

 

[prv]

I thought the tax rules were based on whether or not there are windows behind the driver. ..... May have changed of course

I think that's included as well, but this is all second-hand from a mate who was buying a crew-cab pickup as a business asset, so a bit of a muddle of car tax vs company car rules etc. Anyway, it's a bit tangential to the rules about construction of car seats, seatbelts, etc that I was hoping to find out about.

Pete

 

[clyst]

Cant help with your problem but as its Non boaty Expect Elton the bald forum policeman to pay you a visit .

 

[Ripster]

There are a number of manufacturers that make a CDV crew cab - Vauxhall being one - or they did. We use Vauxhall Astravans and Combo's in our business and its only the Combo that would be worth doing IMO as the load area is bigger. You may find access to the back seats gets a bit awkward because as you prob realise, 2 door cars have longer doors. Vans built with front seat access have shorter doors. You would need to check with perhaps an MOT station as what is needed to get passed if you did your own - sea belt mounts, method of seat securing, access etc. Assume you want to have a completely removable seat unit, thus be able to use the full area as a van?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I thought the tax rules were based on whether or not there are windows behind the driver. ..... May have changed of course

That was changed when Ford brought out a van (Escort derived?) which had titchy little windows behind the doors. Other manufacturers said "Oi, what about rules?" and the DoT said "OK, we'll change them."

 

[prv]

Vans built with front seat access have shorter doors.

Worth considering, but the ones I'm looking at have been built with the normal two-door body. We're talking smallish soft-roaders rather than the traditional Escort van.

Good point about access though. Some of them have a grille between load bay and driver which I quite liked the look of, but it would stop you getting into the back through the front doors. I guess I'd have to unbolt it when putting the seats in. Or, personally I wouldn't be too bothered if people had to climb in through the back, but maybe that's not allowed on the grounds of escape after an accident? In fact, can you still fit fore-and-aft bench seats along the side like an old landrover? Two seats like that along one side of the load bay would do nicely as long as they can be bolted down securely.

You would need to check with perhaps an MOT station as what is needed to get passed if you did your own

Well, I'm hoping to get at least a preliminary verdict on this thread, so I know whether it's worth pursuing. In past threads about trailers we've had some knowledgeable people chime in.

Assume you want to have a completely removable seat unit, thus be able to use the full area as a van?

Yep, exactly. 99% of the time it would be removed and stored in my shed.

Pete

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Cant help with your problem but as its Non boaty Expect Elton the bald forum policeman to pay you a visit .

I'm sure that OP wants to use the van to carry stuff to and from from the boat so it should be OK.

 

[prv]

I'm sure that OP wants to use the van to carry stuff to and from from the boat

Correct

Having spent three winters refitting Kindred Spirit, and looking likely to spend another three on Ariam, I do an awful lot of journeys from house to yard with the car full of plastic crates of tools and materials.

Pete

 

[northwind]

Correct

Having spent three winters refitting Kindred Spirit, and looking likely to spend another three on Ariam, I do an awful lot of journeys from house to yard with the car full of plastic crates of tools and materials.

Pete

Have you considered a Berlingo Multispace type vehicle? i.e. a van with windows that's classed as a car.

Private vans can be a nightmare to insure (insurance companies think you are trying to hide a trade vehicle), whereas the car derivative is fine. Also vans have different speed limits on dual carriageways, whereas the car derived version doesn't. Also Road Tax is differnet for a van (This can work in your favour, depending on the vehicle).

 

[Neil_Y]

Ford galaxy (alhambra/Sharon) are great van/cars or fiat multipla has removable seats and are very cheap, cos they're ugly? Friends have had seats fitted in the back of VW vans by local garage, quite easy and cheap.

 

[prv]

Thanks, but I'm not looking for suggestions of alternative vehicles. I want to know what the rules are on fitting seats, to decide whether it's something I can sensibly undertake or whether the rules make it impractical.

Pete

 

[Stork_III]

Thanks, but I'm not looking for suggestions of alternative vehicles. I want to know what the rules are on fitting seats, to decide whether it's something I can sensibly undertake or whether the rules make it impractical.

Pete

Complete kits are available, not too expensive either. http://vangadgets.co.uk/panel-van-seat-conversions.htm

DoT info sheet here http://webarchive.nationalarchives....mat=all&search_type=cateogory&site=&x=39&y=13

 

[prv]

DoT info sheet here http://webarchive.nationalarchives....mat=all&search_type=cateogory&site=&x=39&y=13

Thanks, that's the kind of thing I was looking for.

Seems to say that there are no specific regulations, which in a way is good, but on the other hand also makes it harder to prove that you're complying with the general ones.

Assuming I don't just buy a ready made kit (and I've only seen ones for more popular vans) I guess the thing to do is adapt or build a convincing and professional-looking set of seats and belts, then take it for one MoT with the seats installed. If the tester passes the arrangement, that's a reasonable indication that it's safe. Though I guess there'll be no indication on the MoT form that it was tested with the seats in place...

Pete

 

[prv]

Some of them have a grille between load bay and driver which I quite liked the look of, but it would stop you getting into the back through the front doors. I guess I'd have to unbolt it when putting the seats in. Or, personally I wouldn't be too bothered if people had to climb in through the back, but maybe that's not allowed on the grounds of escape after an accident? In fact, can you still fit fore-and-aft bench seats along the side like an old landrover? Two seats like that along one side of the load bay would do nicely as long as they can be bolted down securely.

After a little more thought, I reckon the answer is rear-facing seats, back-to-back with the driver and front passenger. Access through the tailgate, plenty of legroom, and I can stick with simple lap-belts with a clearer conscience because you'd decelerate into the seatback in a head-on crash.

Pete

 

[northwind]

After a little more thought, I reckon the answer is rear-facing seats, back-to-back with the driver and front passenger. Access through the tailgate, plenty of legroom, and I can stick with simple lap-belts with a clearer conscience because you'd decelerate into the seatback in a head-on crash.

Pete

Rear facing is a nightmare for Travel sickness, the middle row of seats in our Caravelle can be rear facing, we don't as whoever sits there always feels sick!

 

[prv]

Rear facing is a nightmare for Travel sickness, the middle row of seats in our Caravelle can be rear facing, we don't as whoever sits there always feels sick!

That's the nice thing about the back of a van, it's washable

Pete

 

[macd]

Rear facing is a nightmare for Travel sickness

But at least they won't throw up on the driver

 

[JumbleDuck]

Assuming I don't just buy a ready made kit (and I've only seen ones for more popular vans) I guess the thing to do is adapt or build a convincing and professional-looking set of seats and belts, then take it for one MoT with the seats installed. If the tester passes the arrangement, that's a reasonable indication that it's safe.

The bit I'd be worrying about is when the the insurance company ask "Has the vehicle been modified in any way from the manufacturer's original specifications" and you have to say "Well, I've added some more seats, and they're not the ones the manufacturer would have fitted, 'cos I made them myself" and, once they stop laughing, the insurance company quote a premium that would have made it cheaper to buy a car and a van in the first place.

Not that I have any reason whatsoever to doubt your design or fabrication abilities, but I think adding any seats which haven't got some sort of official approval is asking for trouble.

I had a van which was fitted with rear seats at one time, but they were supplied for the purpose by the manufacturer and were for the estate car version.

 

[prv]

The bit I'd be worrying about is when the the insurance company ask "Has the vehicle been modified in any way from the manufacturer's original specifications"

That's a very good point - thanks.

It's annoying, because 99.99% of the time said seats would be stored in my shed, so the additional risk is miniscule. But insurance companies are not famed for their logic and accommodation to individual cases.

Pete