No more wash - white paper rules for the solent?

[ParaHandy]

Re: delivery

Presume you mean merchant shipping much reduced? Well, last week Maurice Stoney, MCA CEO, had a press release published in his name claiming a quite astonishing increase in UK flag tonnage and your post reminded me of it so I went and had a look for it and... it's been pulled. Wonder why? You see, it's in his job description that he increases this as well as many other superhuman tasks - maybe he nips into a CG hut, does a spin or two, and zooms out in his lycra tights. Or maybe now his boss, Byers, has been fired the MCA aren't into so much spin?

Can't (& wouldn't like to either) see the RNLI in a regulatory role. 50% of their time's spent picking us lot out the water. Much rather see them getting more Sea Checks done - they're good at that.

 

[mtb]

Re: They don\'t pay huge amounts of tax re fuel

Actually you very nearly and quite possibly hit the raggie on the head .
They don't pay huge amounts of tax re fuel .

Lets face it motor boats are all ready subsidising them and as ungrateful as they are now they want to bite the hand that feeds em.
I think thing's should be evened up, introduce a sail tax , levied on the max sail capacity of the thing they have .
At least then they could contribute properly to help pay for hand holding in the Solent.
Mick

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boats
I want a big steel ex trawler / tug v / cheap or swap for tug

 

[andyball]

Re: How fast how near KevB?

Surely a reasonable speed/distance depends on the boat making the wash ?. I create a lower wash (from the side) at 35 knots than at 8 for example, others make relatively little at 12 knots,
some steam through chi.harbour at 12 knots (only just over the limit guv!) causing loads of grief to moored boats/tiddlers.

so rules over specific speeds/distances impossible to enforce ,imo....comes down to common sense/courtesy, both difficult to teach/police

 

[tcm]

how close is too close - solent code

Everyone knows that a large powerful new car on an empty motorway in early morning at (say) 90mph or more, is safer than some dodgy heap holding 70mph on an unlit section in the rain at night.

I made the orig post because this "common courtesy" is completely untaught, unregulated, undefined. Powerboats are simply supposed to know how close is "too" close, and under which conditions (own boat, sea, other boat). Anyone is perfectly at libertyto say that x incident was too much wash, too close....but someone else perfectly at liberty to say well worse things happen at sea and in their opinion should have stowed properly and expect "some" wash etc etc.

Putting at least some yardsticks on it would help. Note that, like the highway code stopping distances for various speeds. So, this size boat in a F4 at that speed etc. etc. and get the info out would be a start, and yeah, okay, without policing for starters. RYA powerboat section do some leaflets and a video of what common courtesy does and does not look like, run the video at boat shows?

This is a basic requirement, and many powerboaters won't ever ever get washin the same way as a sailboat will.

Washees (?) need to say what good manners look like and when very "excellent manners" turns to "a bit close but ok" turns to "on the limit" and turns to "too close" turns to "much to close" turns to "bloody dangerous". I speak as potential washer and washee. You can do a yachtmaster, commercial qualifications and not actually haveany real guidance/examination on this, and anyway you'd do the exams on a weekday in the solent, or go out to find clear water.

all imho of course

 

[Guest]

Re: RNLI comments

There seems to have been so much spleen vented over this posting I wonder if this is a wind up?
Surely the relative freedom from bureaucracy is a major factor in why we go sailing.
I cannot agree with the comments in the initial posting about the RNLI. This is a truly great British voluntary organisation. I cannot see the majority of yachtsmen agreeing to turn them into a government-funded water-borne enforcement agency. That is not what our Shoreline donations are made for.
Most of the Rules suggested, simply state the behavior standards and consideration we all expect. There will always be a few inconsiderate or ignorant fools, but I guess I am a little too laid back to let them spoil my time afloat.

 

[andyball]

Re: how close is too close - solent code

maybe some kind organisation could publish a leaflet showing photo's of unacceptable behaviour....or a table of wash heights/distances away from small craft ?.

Maybe those who started v.small or sail too, are more aware of the problems they can cause?, as you say, we're just supposed to know, and praps if you've never been grieved by someone else's wash, you don't give much thought to it.

Do unto others etc. is how we approach it.

(suspect really, that tcm is simply trying for some private record as the originator of the thread with most replies)

 

[tcm]

THE WAY AHEAD - rnli/rya/mags volunteers please!

Okay, NOT the rnli poilcing, these watered down proposals will have ... leaflets and videos! Slightly less effective, but what the heck.

So praps RYA powerboat section to do these leaflets? Or the RNLI cos they have loot, and still a saftey issue? RNLI funded with assistance from RYA who can promote the material? Something like that ithink

Instead of actual quantitative figures and police, there'll be a "qualitative" standard, illustrated by examples of various boats in various conditions.

Sooo .....they'll need some volunteers in powerboats of various sizes to er blast past some other volunteers in sailing boats of various sizes... to show what is and isn't unacceptable, for the piccies! I trust that forum contributors will be able to help?

 

[KevB]

Re: How fast how near KevB?

I am not disagreeing that there may be instances where wash from a motor boat could be dangerous and I'm sure there are instances where motor boats get too close to sailing boats. But these things happen and you can't introduce rules because of an occasional incident.
I bet for every instance of motor boats causing annoyance to sail boats there are at least 10 instances of sailing vessels (mostly dinghy's) causing annoyance to motor boats.

Maybe if sail boats went in a straight line there wouldn't be a problem, but they cant/don't. It is just as easy to ask for that as to expect a motorboat not to make wash.

I use my boat more than most (90 hrs from new in 3 months) and cruise regularly with a large number of other boats. Without fail everyone does their best to give other boats, not just sail, as wide a berth as possible.

In an ideal world giving another boat 100 mtrs clearance is great but unfortunately the Solent is in the real world not an ideal one. Again without fail (unless dangerous otherwise) I alter course so as to pass sail boats at their stern and at a distance of as much as possible. If doing this I was forced to do this at close quarters (150ft) I would and do slow down, and I personally do not know of anyone who doesn't. As for the ideal speed/distance between boats, that is dependant on location and conditions.

Raggies and Stinkpots are like football supporters, they both love the same pastime/sport but follow different teams. being the only team in the league would be a bit boring don't you think?

Lets pretend the Solent is Wembley stadium and we are all supporting the same team, England.
The opposition are the bureaucrats who would love to spoil our fun, and not your fellow supporters.

As I have said before I believe that this discussion is academic because these instances are few and far between. I know many motor boaters and quite a few raggies and this is not a common gripe between them. So the original post is trying to create a problem where one generally does not exist.


what d'ya mean it's not made to get wet?

 

[trib]

Re: wash - raggies - stinkies ???

WEll it's been interesting watching all the debates piling up, and seeing parts of my favourite magazine ginen over to extensions of the discussions, but it still hasn't swung me one way or the other. However ... it has convinced me that the very last place on earth I want to go sailing, boating, swimming, diving or any other water-borne-"ing"-you-can-think-of is on the South Coast of England .. what a bad tempered bunch of people they must all be around there ... and to think - we all bought our boats in the first place in pursuit of relaxation and enjoyment.

Jeez !! Why don't you all sell your boats, buy expensive sports cars, and then spend every spare moment on the London Orbital Car Park (M 25) ... you'd probably have more fun, and a lot more people to shout at too.

Anyway ... I can never remember what my cone is for, and I forgot what to do with my balls years ago, so I keep them in a locker, and have some fun just keeping out of EVERYBODY'S way. When it boils down to it ... I never want to be heard shouting something like STARBlub..blub...blub.

You've all heard it before, but ... As they say in Jamaica ... Him got da biggis boat - dem got da right of way ... or ... Dirk's rule of the road #11 - Plastic gives way to steel.

Shaddup, Sail, enjoy!!

 

[andyball]

Re: How fast how near KevB?

perhaps all the motorboaters you know are nice responsible people, and all the sailers have slightly larger boats, less affected by wash?....who knows?.

Clearly it's not a problem in your experience, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem for others.

 

[KevB]

Re: How fast how near KevB?

There is always something to moan about - weather/road congestion/not enough wind/too much wind/inconsiderate boaters/wrong tidal stream/not enough money in the bank......... In the scheme of things is wash such a big issue?
It's as big an issue as dinghy's having generally total disregard to anything else on the water. I accept them as one of the hazards of boating. maybe others should do the same about boat wash!
Wash is the bi product of motorboats, boats zig zagging up and down fairways is a bi product of sailing boats. I realise that and accept it. why can't you do the same about wash. Both a bit of a pain BUT IT'S WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU GO BOATING!!!

what d'ya mean it's not made to get wet?

 

[Bergman]

Re: delivery

Interesting projects:-

Re NHS is that the WVF or WWF

The difference could be significant - although either would probably be an improvement.

Re Civil engineering projects - I thought she WAS one

Dunno if RNLI would want the job - very much respected now - if started chastising people for being naughty maybe lose sympathy/respect.

 

[jfm]

A code of manners

Just read this thru for the first time. I'm a sailor and a stinkie, 50:50. Saily is a small Jeanneau, stinky is a 40 odd foot Fairline, makes loads of wash. Both in Solent

I think everyone agrees this is about manners, except a mindless few but they will always exist just like on the roads.

IMHO the prob is that people genuinely have no idea where the line is. Most powerboaters who piss off yachties dont mean to, and they think the angry reaction from the yachtie is caused by a Victor Meldrew gene. As stated elsewhere, powerboat wake discomfort happens when the yachtie has gone miles out of sight, because the boat is 30knots and the wake moves sideways at praps 5kts. Remember, when the yottie gives the 2 finger salute to the powerboat 30metres away he is doing it before the wake has hittim, else the powerboater wouldn't see.

Likewise, many powerboaters say you should expect waves at sea, but it is basic human nature to get pissed off when you get rocked by a powerboat that should be further away, even if no crockery breaks. It might not be dangerous, but it does piss off rational sensible people.

So distilling TCM's proposal, the bit that matters is that it defines things. Eg if the 100m is right (in my sailboat mode, I think it is) then let's all adopt it. Yotties will not get pissed at powerboaters who observe that rule, and will only direct anger at those who infringe. Likewise, powerboaters will generally observe the rule because it is just that, a socially accepted rule founded in a bit of wavey logic. Just like manners, opening door for lady.

I therefore support the idea that we should somehow set a code of rules, regarded more as manners than law, but defined in specific terms like "100metres" or whatever. Putting it on a forum like this wont do it, need much more visible action like that, so a few speed cops in RIBs sounds fine to me.

PS, TCM - you cannot measure SOG or STW with a speed gun unless you can prove the speedcop RIB is itself stationary, and I doubt they'll drop anchor to deploy the speed gun! You could do it if the speedcop is on the shore, but that sounds unfeasible and massive cosine error (in boats favour). Or you could use land based radar tracking the whole solent, but not feasible when traffic density high. So I suggest nice speed cops in RIB give the offending skipper a firm word about manners. Praps replay him/her an instant video of effect of his wash on washee, or something?

 

[david_e]

Re: A code of manners

Youv'e got it right; manners, courtesy, behaviour call it what you like but before any of these and regulation must come the education bit and that is down to all. Sellers, Mags, Manufacturers, Marinas, Harbourmasters (the one in Pwllheli sits in his office and shouts with his tannoy when the offender (nearly always a jetski or small pb) exceeds 4 knots. It is actually measured by the wake which then causes the boats on the trots to bounce of each other and tangle rigs etc.

My belief is that it is behavioural, quick synopsis of behaviour process;

Event, thought, feeling = behaviour

Event = "goody, boat is on water" etc
Thought = It's a power boat, suns out, water is flat, I can see a gap nothing to stop me, boat can handle it, lets go etc
Feeling = Brilliant, faster faster, 2mo it might be waves, everyone else is looking I must blast it
Behaviour = everything that we have been discussing

How do you change behaviour? Answer change the thought process, primarily through education, many will listen and make an adjustment, others wont, that's life.

 

[tcm]

Re: proving speed guns

Think i had semi-invented a radar gun with inbuilt gps that netted off/on it's own speed. Any, they cd hook on to one of the moorings outsdie cowes to try the gun thing.

And anyway anyway, your nicked, sonny - come and sit in the back of this boat and we'll replay the speed detector - look it says 100.0. Now let's not try and be clever it is not Classic FM, even if it does look a bit like a car radio, and anyway you're still nicked for being a bit arsey, and because your wife didn't burst into floods of tears saying "he's going to go to prison!" which would have worked.

 

[KevB]

Re: proving speed guns

Now I know this is all just a wind up. Well done, had me going.

what d'ya mean it's not made to get wet!!

 

[jimi]

Re: A code of manners

Agree completely with this post. The origin of all manners & law is to enable society to function properly. Not saying thats what they end up as though! So it is important to remember that the prime objective is to enable all neighbours to co exist peacefully otherwise danger to life & limb will result either directly or indirectly through retribution. Normally codes of behaviour (aka manners) exist and only when these are not observed does the rule of law need to be invoked.

Therefore I would suggest a 3 stage approach

1) Awareness .. so people are aware of the consequences of behaviour.
2) Communication .. code of conduct
3) Law .. to penalise gross breaches of code of conduct

However observance of 2 often requires a culture change, which as anyone will tell you is virtually impossible to effect! With regard to 3 for a law to be effective it must be acceptable & enforceable and in most situations I cannot see it being enforceable as in many cases it will just be one crew's word against another and the enforcement agency not interested until there is damage to limb or property.

So in conclusion, I think for the vast decent majority some sort of awareness program could be highly effective although I'm afraid the rude bully boy will always get away with it

Luv & kisses

 

[jfm]

Re: proving speed guns

It wd have to net off/on the cosine of it's own speed etc!

OK, so the copper sees someone mebbe speeding. So "quick!" he yells, "over to that buoy ouside Cowes and tie to it. QUICK!! HE's GETTING AWAY!". Copboat finally ties off to buoy, and fellon blimmin turns into Medina, or alters course so massive cosine error, or remembers the Cowes is a Gatso zone (he will have bort a GPS LED device off the internet form a dodgy firm in Dartford, to remind him, with a flybridge repeater) so will slow down, then gun it when he's gone past.

In fact, why not put a load of Gatsos on barges all along the Solent?

 

[davel]

Alternative code

Instead of operating in a two dimensional plane with all the congestion problems this causes, why not utilise the third dimension?

I vote for raggies on top of the water and stinkies under the water.

Just a suggestion mind!

Dave L.

 

[tcm]

Re: videos/leaflet

I going off the sped guns, and favouring the informative video, tho claymore seems to have gone off at a tangent. Well, more like a hypotenuse....