No more wash - white paper rules for the solent?

[tcm]

Good for the goose

I wasn't trying to devise a pro-sailboat nor an anti-powerboat charter. This was an anti-wash charter. If sailboats break local speed limits or regulations in a particular harbour which already in force, then they too can be cautioned or fined. I don't see why the initial records you describe should herald the end of local policing, nor a case against my proposals for a different area.

 

[RayB]

Re: RayB - no steerage under 5 knots

See this is typical!

yes i have steerage under 5 knots in the marina, but in say cowes entrance with a cross wind and a flood tide less than 5 knots i loose steerage and windage is a problem, yet i got a fist from a raggie and his 4 kids (must have trained them to shake fist at all motor boats from a young age) in Cowes entrance at 4.7 knots a couple of weeks back, with little wash

I was staggered.

"Hopefully that won't be too expensive to fix?"

 

[Jeremy_W]

North/South

It's not a North/South divide thing. It's the volume of traffic. If you've never seen it, you would not believe how crowded the mouth of the Hamble and Lymington Rivers become on a weekend, most of the crews frustrated and tired by hours of traffic jams on the trip down from London or Birmingham. So the power boaters are in a rush to give their boats a bit of welly as they pass the 6-knot sign; the raggies aren't in the mood to wave amicably at every passing powerboat; and the dinghy racers go into blinkered mode as the 5-minute gun fires.

Everybody should sail on the Solent once in their life - but probably only once.

 

[david_e]

Re: Not raggie

For a moment I thought that this was another (tcm) wind up, then I remembered you do actually go sailing from time to time.

As a small (21ft, with open transom) boat owner I am readily aware of the wash factor. Without regulation it seems that we have to rely on peeps consideration and etiquette, and the evidence and experience proves that they seem to be in very short supply.

At Pwllheli, which has a relatively short trip from marina to open sea, the minute most stinkies reach the unrestricted zone it is full blast and away to the next stop.

If there is a breeze about I can tolerate it, but with little wind (ideal stinkie weather) it is a pain.

Last week out in the bay there was not another boat within a mile of mine apart from a Jenneau thing with a big outboard, which blasted by at full speed less than 30 yards away. Not a major problem 'cause I was powered up and away, just the guy completely unaware of other options and not wanting to change course.

The answer lies primarily not in regulation but education through certification there are a few who are considerate but most don't give two hoots, hence all the aggro that exists between two groups who in theory share the same pastime, boating.

Anyway, good of you, King of the MBC. to show such consideration for us.

[now please don't spoil it and tell me it was a wind up! -) ]

 

[mtb]

Re: are raggies an ethnic minority !!

You think they were because all I seem to read about is they went to fast their wash no consideration rules for this and that .Always winging never happy just like an ethnic minority !!!!! with an inferiority complex

My boat does not go fast ,have I once said, bloody boat came past to quickly ,no course I aint why .
COS I EXPECT IT
So stow your me me me attitude and be realistic.
Mick

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boats
I want a big steel ex trawler / tug v / cheap or swap for tug

 

[tcm]

Re: Not windup

Not a windup, and not a problem for most of the UK, nor for solent for large proportion of the year.

But as you say, the conditions for good powerboating (flat water) coincide with worst condition for sailing bioats, hanging about at 3-4 knots and every bit of wash counts a lot - whereas in a f4-5 there are fewer powerboats and the wash of those that are around doesn't (relatively) matter so much.

Is 100m workable/enough?

Also, why wd certification do much? After all, the car driving test tells you where to park/not park a car, and there are signs...and yet loads of people park in bonkers places if they can get away with it. My plan is simply to stoppem right there and then, and for it to be known that blamming around in a congested area is a no-no. There's a pleasureboat (power) that runs brixham to dartmouth, perhaps 60 feet, bet he's got certs etc, ploughs into dartmouth while were in a dinghy, and i had to plane to get away from him. Harbourmaster shouts me over, and I explained that although I'm planing, the pleasureboat must've been doing 12+knots. "he's been coming here for years!" say HM. Well, he must have been breaking the speed limit for years, cos you saw how fast i had to go to stay in front of him, I said. So HM went off to see him. Dunno if he went any slower, but with nice diesels and no enforcement, people drive faster, licence or otherwise. indeed, after certification, those who had passed (most , i bet) would feel even more goody goody having had their own (sometimes incorrect) judgement "approved".

 

[tcm]

Re: RayB - no steerage under 5 knots

Are you quoting these speeds from (notoriously inaccurate) speed log? Or from GPS? But your boat (any boat) will be entirely controllable at 5 knots, or a lot less, surely? I agree that some fistshaking seems inbred. But raggies don't generally go out to have a bad time in the wash of powerboats, they're out for a good time, no? It would be very interesting for you (and fun) to go on a sailboat sometime, perhaps?

 

[Viking]

Its the wash in confined spaces which is the problem. Here in Norway, on a local TV boating mag. programme the opening shots where of a powerboat doing high speed turns in the harbour here. In the back ground you could see boats moored along side the quay dancing up and down in the wash.
I complained to the TV station saying now dangerous it was, if kids were on boarded those boats for example or people were trying to get on and off etc. and was this the type of seamanship they wish to pass on younger viewer who maybe which is programme.
I'm please to say that the open shots were removed.
But motor boats still speed pass marinas here, coursing I feel quite dangerous situations and damage.
My next 'campaign' must be to get speed limits placed in and around marina areas here as there are none at the moment.
Keep the speed to the open areas where others have time to deal with it.

"Can I borrow somebodys soapbox"?

 

[Gordonmc]

Having read the thread I am pleased the waters I use aren't affected by the same problems.
However, there is one aspect to tcm's proposal which warrants further consideration, and that's the use of the RNLI as polis.
I think the majority of volunteer lifeboatmen would throw up their hands in horror at the thought that they would be used to patrol inshore waters in search of miscreants. They give up their time to save lives.
I accept that potentially life threatening hazards would be reduced by more considerate behaviour, but the RNLI is a benign organisation in the kinds of most sea-goers and that should remain the case.
Imagine the situation of the Institute being tasked with policing an area of water where the wash problem persists. Will our heroes have fine quotas to meet?
Tcm's rules are laudible... as a voluntary code which should be encouraged by all and not just in the Solent, but all confined waters. Motor yacht owners are likely to pay heed to admonishment by owners of similar craft.

 

[tcm]

I don't have massive knowledge of the workings of the workings of the rnli. But how "amateur" can they be? The fabled fishing men who drop their nets at a moments notice may well be there altho inlesser numbers. But the running of the organsation, buying + maintaining boats, etc etc...must have more than a little professionalism and many full time staff.

I'm not sure that they need to be dedicated speed cops 100% of the time. And in ensuring that the minority aren't spoiling things for themselves and others, often arising out of lack of knowledge, they wd be performing a safety role (pre-emptively) . Praps after the number of times they've found/rescued people with minimal gear/knowledge they might see this as a positive step?

 

[KevB]

Rules for the Solent only to be made by people who keep their boats in/on the Solent.

People who keep their boats in S France/Med can make rules for that area only.


Politically incorrect and proud of it.

 

[KevB]

What a load of old cobblers this is. What realy makes my blood is two things - Saily types who moor their boats on swinging moorings right on the edge of a main channel of a merina/harbour then moan when thier boats get a rocked as others go by. If you don't like the movement you shouldn't be on the water or don't be so tight and keep your boat in a merina. The other thing that gets up my goat is the total disrigard for others that dinghy sailors have when they are racing. They couldn't give two hoots who's way they get into. If it was one dinghy fair enough you could get passed it and motor on happily but they turn up in their dozens and expect everyone else to be mind readers as to what way they are going to go next. You slow down to miss one cutting in fornt of you and get bad mouthed by another that was tacking behind you. Oh, and another thing... Why must they put their racing markers in the middle of a narrow channel???

Politically incorrect and proud of it.

 

[KevB]

If people keep harping on about imaginary conflicts between Raggies and stink pots some tight arsed official will make their job to restrict our chosen past time. everyone I know both Sailors and motor boaters get on very well and use the difference in our sports as an opportunity for playful banter with no malice involved.
There are ar$eholes in all walks of life, motor boating and sailing alike but the vast majority of us enjoy our past time without inflicting hardship on others. Lets keep it that way and stop making divisions where non exists.
A cheerful wave given by both sides is more often than not the norm, it's a very rare occasion where there is genuine conflict. The density of boats around the Solent and the actual amount of incidents show that most of the conflicts are in the heads of people who never use the area or never actually use their boats.

Politically incorrect and proud of it.

 

[KevB]

3. "Pass in any case by 100m from any sailboat if at above displacement speed, and behind sailboats wherever possible. Colregs still apply viz turning to starboard. This may "orbiting" or stopping, as below. "


Yeah right!

In this case on a busy weekend a motor boat would never get on the plain. I think you would find it a luxury to find 330 feet between boats on certain parts of the solent on most weekends.

The Solent is a busy fun location and the number of boats around add to the enjoyment of the area. I wouldn't change it even if I could. (apart from making the marina's cheaper)


Politically incorrect and proud of it.

 

[KevB]

Sorry to go on, but just to make a point there is a cruise this weekend to Bucklers Hard with 20+ motor boats and 20+ sail boats all from the same marina going on a joint jolly. And yes, I'll be there.

Politically incorrect and proud of it.

 

[tcm]

Good points well made...

Um, not sure that (to follow the logic) only those who have cars (say) should be allowed to make rules affecting car drivers. At least you admit the political incorrectness of complaining about awkward "tightfisted" types who use swinging moorings. It is only a discussion, KevB.

I was on a sailboat recently, off Gurnard, got into a moderate mess with jib, but no matter, well out of the way or so I thought. Uh oh, powerboat coming up to clip the point ere we go, hold on. He was coming up from the west, a long way off, wanted to stay outside the buoy, but not by much, perhaps feeling safer inside the buoy, but not wanting to go around the back of us cos that would increase his journey time by a massive 20-3- seconds. So he split the 40 yards between us and the marker. Good eh? So i blimmin gave him the conventional salute, and still on the plane he wheeled round and drove around the boat blathering on about colregs, still at speed, and also how he'd turned to starboard (to avoid actually whacking into our boat, presumably) and how he's been here for 14 years, and still oblivious to the wake while we're on deck telling him to clear off and/ior now just holding on. If a powerboat is close enough to see someone givbing him two fingers - he's too close ....all IMHO

and not wanting to cheese u off kevb, but can i politely decline involvement in raggie/power brit/med solent/elsewhere pigeonholes? Seems that many (incl your good self?) would very quickly recognise the difference between police/non-police and act accordingly at least when police types were around?

 

[tcm]

Re: divisions?

I made no divisions. But the simple fact remains that only at anchor would a powerboat be affected by wash - the rest of the time they run at a speed which would cause only minor or momentary disturbance. I agree that it may well be a minority who do not appreciate the issue. But it is bad enough that the Peters instruction boat does not always have such an appreciation. Even when I was on a 50' powerboat they have hauled enough wash past chichester to cause me to have to drop on all fours and hold on.

 

[Smiffy]

The problems you bring up here are not so much to do with motor boats or sailing boats as with overcrowding. Wash is a fact of life when boats move through the water. If you get lots of boats in a small space you get lots of wash. You shouldn't all lose sight of the fact that a sailing boat under way makes wash too. The point is that all water users should consider the plight of each other especially in crowded waters like the Solent.
I normally sail on the East Coast where overcrowding is less of a problem, although the rivers have their moments. Most people here are reasonably considerate and there doen't seem to be this antagonism between stinkies and raggies.
When it boils down to it why bother to go sailing when its as crowded as the M25 on a Monday morning? I thought we go sailing to get away from all that.

 

[KevB]

Re: divisions?

tcm,

I'm not having a go at anyone but what you describe re wash is inevitable. lets have a go at the sea Gods for giving us swell when all we really want is a nice steady F5 and mill pond flat seas.
Lets keep the analogies with cars going by comparing having to turn the wheel because someone is turning left in front of you with getting rocked about in your boat because someone else is on the water. I guess they are both inconsiderate for being there?

I really don't believe there is any where near as much animosity between stinkies and raggies as you are making out.

There is a BIG difference between having your boat sway a little because of wash - this is going to happen get used to it, live with it or stay off the water, and someone creating soooooo much wash that it's going to cause someone an injury. If the last instance occurs there are two issues here. firstly the moron creating the wash should be key hauled, and secondly, if your out in the Solent, in a boat that can't take wash (max height of wash from your average pleasure boat has to be 3ft MAX) then consider using your boat in less "rough" waters.

There are far more dangerous things out there than a little wash, lobster pot bouys for instance.

I boat almost every weekend in the Solent and have yet to see ANYONE stinkie or raggie have a go at the other. Now dinghy's - that's another matter altogether......

Politically incorrect and proud of it.

 

[tcm]

Re: divisions?

You were having a go at me a bit - but no matter!

I tried not to touch any issue of raggie/stinki animosity, irrelevant and silly, I agree.

The issue is purely that of dangerous wash, and unlesss it's on your boat (usually a slow or near-static and hence usually but always sailboat) it can't be seen. "Having a go" or "taking issue" is almost never an option: I saw a large broom-type 35+footer approach Yarmouth from the west through all the moorings, then come off the plane and enter the harbour. The dozen or so boats outside got heartily thrown about, but not until the broomhad gone around the corner and into the harbour. I don't suppose he's seen any problems either. None of these were incapable of "taking" the wash, but there could have been lots of stuff smashed, kettles etc etc

Anyway, the saily types aren't taking issue so....perhaps not as much of an issue as i thought...