New user - Mediterannean crusing

[goodgg]

Been researching for a couple of weeks now and found this site amazingly useful. Thanks everyone. Seriously considering taking the plunge and in fact am off to the south of france this weekend to have a look at a few yards. So here's what's on my mind. Any help/comments appreciated.

- i have no experience (barring acouple of holidays on the Broads and the Thames!). What type of licence is required for the med. Is it just the ICC?

- Any recommenndations of good "schools" in the south of france.

- I have a budget of circa £100k and am homing in on something like a 34 footer possibly Sealine or older Fairline? Any other suggestions? Would a 28 footer be too small to "live" on for say a week at a time

- Any recommendations on good dealers in the south of france

- i would be interested in moorings around Nice. I have in mind a figure of around £4000 for mooring. is this reasonable? Any suggested locations? Am I going to struggle to find somewhere to "park"

- Anyone have experience in chartering such boats (i.e. getting a management company to charter the boat while I am not using it). Does such a market exist for this size of boat?

- Insurance for such a boat in the south of france with a novice like me at the helm... £1500 per annum??

Sorry for all the questions. Any comments appreciated. Realistically I am hoping to be up and running by the beginning of the 2005 season

Thanks very much


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[DepSol]

Sorry cant help you much on Med boating as I have never experienced it first hand better to wait for TCM to come on here and reply.

Insurance should be around £500 not £1500.

28 footer to live on for a week is ok if its just you and the wife but if you have kids it can start getting a little to small, I would stick to the 34 footer is possible.

Get a short list of boats from your wanderings around the yards and internet. Pick th ones you like but remember to take note of engines and hours, age of boat, make and model etc etc as much detail as possible then feed it back here for peoples experiences.

Some boats may be yes go for it or dont touch it advice but either way its best to ask.

Best of luck

<hr width=100% size=1>Dom

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[jfm]

Hi - some brief replies. We sail from Antibes and have been in the Med 2 years. It is fabulous by the way, you will love it

1. Yes, ICC is fine. But you ought to get at least dayskip practical as well, so you are competent/comfortable with that size boat. The courses are usually fun and well worth the time/money anyway.

2- Schools in the south of france. Haven't used any down there (did mine UK) but the leading operator seems to be <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.oceanpro.co.uk>http://www.oceanpro.co.uk</A>. English people, based east side of Cap Ferrat, Beaulieu I think.

3. Boat size - This is a separate thread (!) but bigger is always better. I'd get a 34 footer over a 28 if at all possible. In the med you need toys, fast tender etc. A bigger boat will allow you to carry better toys-

4.- Dealers in the south of france. I haven't heard of specially bad ones. Maybe try Murray Bray www.ariedeboom.com in La Rague, Bart at www.ancasta.fr in La Napoule. Both speak fluent English

5. Mooring. First off, you are right to be near Nice. imho med boating only works if you can cut down the journey time ie max 30mins Nice airport. But moorings are really difficult, do not under estimate. Dont buy boat till sorted. You cannot walk into a marina and just ask for a space and book for a year, like in UK. Berths are privately owned and most renting is short term. If lucky you might find an owner prepared to offer you a 1 year deal, maybe. But you have one advantage which is buying a boat. Most dealers own or control some berths, so when you buy boat insist on a year's mooring included in the deal (you have to pay berth rent, but you get security of tenure). After the one year expires, you are back to square 1, but at least you know the area and have contacts by then. To get hassle free mooring, buy one. 10m berth will be say £70k for a nice marina (Antibes, Golfe Juan, LaNapoule) and maybe 40-50k for a less nice marina (st Laurant du Var, La Rague, etc). Thing is, they're a good investment, appreciate in value. And even if you have to borrow the money your 4k suggested fee will pay off a loan for the mooring cost? So no brainer?

- Chartering - I dont have experience but there will be a very thin market for that size boat. Some agents might list it but you will be lucky to get more than a few, if any, bookings. It will be self drive charter, so bigger damage risk. And strictly the boat needs to be MCA coded which will cost a few £k, so you could lose money. Dont bank on charter income.

- Insurance - perhaps under £1000 if no chartering

Good luck.

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[Nick_H]

Also can't help much on the Med side, although I know some UK boaters moor in Antibes, which is an easy jaunt from Nice airport. Simon Walworth at Boatmatch (www.boatmatch.com) has customers who moor there, and will almost certainly put you in touch in return for a no obligation chance to find you a suitable boat.

As regards the importance of size (more tea vicar), I've had a few boats of varying sizes, and would strongly suggest sticking with the 34 footer if you can stretch to it, the extra space and benefit of a seperate cabin and saloon is a godsend. Also, in simple terms, the longer the hull, the more comfortable the ride. I had a Sealine S37 and was delighted with it, so I'm sure a 34 will also be good, and you seem to get a fair bit newer boat for your money than the equivalent Fairline.

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[EME]

I can't add much to what JFM has written ... pretty full.

I would advise befriending a broker . In addition to Bart at Anacasta ( who at least 4 of us here have dealt with), there is also Thierry at Arie de Boom (not sure if Murray has now left ) and also try William Parton at Berthon .... if you are interested in any particular marque having looked around do ask and we can tell you who the local brokers are.

Do spend the money , fly and hire a car then visit all of the marinas - Antibes is not everyone's cup of tea - but it is by far the livelist location . You will also "benefit" from avoiding the French there !!! More Brit boaters based there than in Porto Solente ( ducks to avoid incoming missiles). However there are so many marinas to chose from and only one ( Port Canto in Cannes) to be avoided like the plague due to its ongoing legal battles. If possible visit in July/August to see how busy SoF can be BUT do your footslogging of the agancies after the Cannes bost show in September - all the agents are busy loooking after existing clients who do things like dropping anchors at this time of year.

Disagree a bit with JFM on berth purchase prices ... apparently ( according to Bart ) they are being to equalise but Demand is MUCH greater than Supply.

Chartering - wholly concur with JFM - you would be better off looking for for a person to boat share with if capital cost is the issue.

You will pay somewhere between £4000 and £6000 per annum for a berth IF you can find one -- beter to buy and get a nice appreciating value asset.

Day Skipper is the way to go to get ICC and have some fun doing it --- plenty in the UK BUT if you want to do it in the Sun , a poster here ( Suncoast) is based in Southern Spain and consequently has the 'Tidal' endorsement on their courses.

The SoF is a magic place to be - especially on the water - Good Luck.



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[goodgg]

thanks for the fantastically helpful responses. This is all very encouraging. The mooring issue seems key.

I am living in Milan at the moment so Nice is only a 3 hour drive making regular weekend trips a real possibility. I'll keep you posted after my weekend visit.

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[dangcharios]

Look at .fotobarco.es

Alan

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[Renegade_Master]

Re:goodgg

And if you want a Day Skip/ICC course click below. Clive

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Good advice from jfm, learner, suncoast et al here. I ran a Targa 48 in South of France last year although I sold it this year and we are currently running an Azimut in Spain
The number one problem you have is finding a berth in SoF and the closer you are to Nice airport you are, the worse the situation is. You may be able to buy a boat whose vendor owns the mooring and is willing to rent it out to you for a limited period but, in my experience, such boats are generally overpriced because the vendor knows the value of having a berth attached to the sale. You may be able to buy a boat from a dealer and negotiate a berth for rent. Bart van der Heuvel at Ancasta in La Napoule is worth seeing but dont hold your breath
Unlike jfm, I would not advocate buying a berth, at least not initially, until you are sure you want to stay in SoF. Firstly, you are not buying a freehold but a leasehold, maybe the balance of a 25yr lease, could be as little as 16-18yrs. Secondly, there have been a couple of cases of the freeholder (usually the local council) seizing berths back from the leaseholders. Thirdly, under new regulations this year, berth rentals are now controlled by the Capitannerie so it may not be so easy in the future to rent a berth out if you are not using it. But, I would agree that it probably makes sense to buy a berth if you plan to stay long term
Chartering. I didnt intend to do chartering last season but I ended up doing a few days thru a reputable charter agent (Winner in La Napoule, contact Eric Dalibard). Much to my surprise, Winner did not insist that the boat be MCA coded. In fact neither they or another charter company in La Napoule seemed remotely bothered about MCA coding. I ended up doing about 10 days worth of day charter through Winner and paid for most of my running costs for the year after their 25% cut. I did inform my insurance company who did increase my premium but not by much and they did insist on knowing the name and qualifications of Winner's skipper.
However, apart from the legality of not MCA coding the boat, there are problems with chartering. You may not be able to use the boat when you want to especially during July and August. The boat may require extra maintenance which may affect the time you have on your boat and your boat may be damaged - ours was because the so-called professional skipper didnt tie it up properly after a charter.
I do agree with jfm in that most charter boats are bigger than what you are contemplating but Winner certainly had a number of smaller boats on their books. But your boat will have to be newish, in good condition and an upmarket make (Sunseeker, Fairline definitely, Princess maybe, Sealine probably not - if you want to charter your Sealine out, there is an active charter base in Menorca)
The boat. Agree with everyone else, the bigger the better. If you're going to live on the boat for even short periods, you need a good amount of interior accomodation especially if you intend to be on the boat over winter as well - the weather can be just as bad as the UK. You cant just drive back home when the weather turns bad like you can in the UK so you're stuck living on the boat. In fact the reason we sold our Targa 48 was that we felt it didnt have enough accomodation for living on board and we have a flybridge boat now which we think is better for the kind of boating we do. IMHO, you definitely need aircon and a hydraulic passarelle and a generator is worth having as your batteries will get hammered driving 2 or 3 fridges at anchor for a few hours
Be aware that boating in SoF is an expensive past time. Apart from berthing you will probably end up paying a guardiennage company to look after your boat in your absence, maintenance costs are very high because labour rates and parts prices are high, fuel is about €0.90/litre which is more than twice that in the UK. Eating out is expensive and so is supermarket food although, of course, booze and smokes are much cheaper

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[EME]

' Supermarket food is expensive' -- ????? where do you shop in UK , I must go there !! We find prices are cheaper by about 20% !!

Restaurants - ???? - have to agree about the ones on the coast but where do you get those views/location in UK ? .... we think London restaurants are on average twice as much !! Oh well ...

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'll lend you my wife, Learner. She can make any supermarket look expensive! Maybe its because there's a wider variety of yummy foods available that you end up spending more
As for restaurants, we always seemed to spend €150 for 2 plus 1 course for the brat whatever the menu and thats only with 1 bottle of vin. I guess thats not pricey compared to London restaurants but, out in the sticks where we are, you can eat well in a good pub restaurant (no, not a Harvester!) for £50-70. Maybe you being a local, you know the places to go in the SoF?

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[EME]

Thanks for the offer .... but I seem to have my own resident expert at spending !! I do agree about spending more in total --- I mean no self respecting local would ever think of visiting the supermarket without at least 6 bottles of wine and a couple of champagne..

You must ONLY visit the best restaurants , but then again I guess the Oasis in La Nap is possibly the most expensive I know !

Seriously , I even know one in Pegomas which only does a menu fixe ( we call it the canteen ) 4 courses. includes bottles of wine and coffee for €12.50 per head !! and loads that do excellent menus at 23-28 per head ..

Take your point about outside London ... but then again we don't get out very often.

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Always steered SWMBO away from the Oasis. Just seeing the flunkies parking diners' cars gives my wallet a headache. Dont know about the best restaurants. Does the Boucanier qualify? Always seem to spend €150 in there. Same with that place on top with the flames at the front

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[Renegade_Master]

"Winner did not insist that the boat be MCA coded. In fact neither they or another charter company in La Napoule seemed remotely bothered about MCA coding"

reputable Mike? yet they did not insist on MCA coding.
I dont know of any insurance company who insure uncoded charter boats.

I would not want to go on a charter boat which was not coded, anymore than I would use an unlicenced mini cab in the west end if you get my drift.



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[goodgg]

Update

Well im here in monaco sipping on a nice cool glass of wine having spent the day boat hunting.

two favourites are emerging

1. a 1999 sunseeker superhawk 34 with 250hrs in Beaulieu. i was amazed to be told that 12 mths mooring there is something like euro 12000. is that b$$llocks/

2. a 2002 cranchi 39 endurance with 50 hours in golfe juan for euro 180.000.

any comments on these two? which is likely to be easiest to sell on when i come to trade up/.

thanks

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[goodgg]

ps

the sunseeker 34 superhawk is on for euro 160.000

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

The Cranchi is acknowledged to be a very fine sea boat but the Sunseeker will probably be easier to sell on. I would go for the Cranchi myself because its more boat for the money but thats only a personal opinion. Neither have enough space for on board living again as a personal opinion.
The berth rental will depend on the length/width of the berth not the length of the boat in it. You will find rentals cheaper further west (if you can find a berth to rent that is). Beaulieu is a lovely spot though

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[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thats the situation, Clive and Winner are a reputable charter company recommended to me by the local Fairline dealer. The fact is that the French tend to be selective about which regulations they observe. They did ensure that there were sufficient lifejackets and liferafts on board for the maximum number of passengers.


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[EME]

That is very expensive for Beaulieu.. depends what size berth they were quoting for of course. But if it was the S/hawk it is total crap.. Beaulieu is actually one of the cheaper ports ..

Both those boats will go on a 3.80m wide berth .... you should pay around €6,000 MAX per annum anywhere for that ...

Cranchis do sell very well in SoF although that one is, on face value, quite reasonably priced , and big enough for 2 for a week as it does have a real cabin -- unlike the Superhawk... Price depends on spec --- the 39 has a pretty extensive options list - most on Med have nearly every option --- Have a look at the cranchi website -- but as advised by others would need AC and Genn for Med for a week IMHO . Also when I was looking at them a couple of years ago .. one dealer advised me that they really needed a bowthruster for reasonable handling ( the one he was selling didn't) --- even seen one with a sternthruster as well.

If for sale by the agent/broker in GJ make sure it isn't a charter vessel ( ie price excludes haveing had VAT paid) - I think they were chartering one last year ...

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[Renegade_Master]

and Solas bags and grab lines, and recovery suits, and engine room fire extinguishers, and torches and extinguishers in each cabin no doubt Mike, goodness the list goes on and on doesnt it?

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