New thruster tube unwinding :-(

[EugeneR]

My thruster tube was finally installed however I am told that it appears to be "unwinding".

Specifically:

- The guy who installed the thruster leg reported that it was "all fluffy" inside when he tried to drill the hole for the leg. Also, when drilling, loose strands got caught on the drill bit and took off part of the inside of the tube.

- The guy who installed the tube reported that it didn't sound right when he cut it. Also, he found that it was unwinding and that more strands came off than he would have expected. After raising the issue, he went back and found that the bit that came of internally was up to 2mm of the overall 5mm thickness!

The thruster and tube are Lewmar products; however, it appears the tube is made in the EU by a 3rd party. I called the 3rd party for support and they advised it may be one from a batch of tubes wrongly supplied to their client and which need to be "peeled". If not done, it will have to be re-installed.

Do you have experience with thruster tubes "unwinding" and can it be properly fixed i.e. should I accept a "patch" on the inside of the tube where the leg is supposed to be mounted?

 

[nimbusgb]

No direct experience but I wouldn't accept a patch! A patch will reduce the internal diameter, may not bond to the existing tube properly and will be hell to lay up given that at least part of it will be inverted. ( The original may well have been autoclaved ) The tube delaminating ( unwinding ) is a very serious problem. If it collapses either due to the use of the thruster or under normal motoring the boat will be in serious trouble.

Wrong tube ....... redo entire job.

Why didn't the installer stop when he first thought something was wrong? Carry on regardless!!!!

 

[RobWales]

3rd party...so what? take it up with the vendor/dealer that sold you the items...unless of course 2nd hand i.e new unused and selling on?

Interested to find out seller's response here?

 

[EugeneR]

The 3rd party has now had a look and acknowledges that strands are coming off. Their initial suggestion is that it could be "patched" from the inside of the tube i.e. where the drill bit has taken out "about 1/2mm depth x 4mm width of strand" according to them.

I said that I am a bit worried about having to patch a tube that is supposed to be new and that, even assuming their "only 1/2mm" estimate is correct, only leaves 4.5mm to carry the thruster motor and deal with it's associated vibrations.

Also, patching the visible damage does not resolve the "fluffy" consistency found inside the tube...

 

[RobWales]

The 3rd party has now had a look and acknowledges that strands are coming off. Their initial suggestion is that it could be "patched" from the inside of the tube i.e. where the drill bit has taken out "about 1/2mm depth x 4mm width of strand" according to them.

I said that I am a bit worried about having to patch a tube that is supposed to be new and that, even assuming their "only 1/2mm" estimate is correct, only leaves 4.5mm to carry the thruster motor and deal with it's associated vibrations.

Also, patching the visible damage does not resolve the "fluffy" consistency found inside the tube...

Patching from the inside is going to constitute a risk of the prop fouling on the i/d if not carefull!

If not already glassed into place in the hull personally I would sheath the whole o/d with a few layers of matting and seal with flow coat before fitting.

 

[ianj99]

Is the tube not glassed in inside the boat?

If not why can't it be or shouldn't it have been?

I'm sure the ones I have seen being installed did not just rely upon the tube thickness for strength but were glassed in.

Can the inside be given a few coats of epoxy?

 

[lw395]

If you bought it new, you should start by talking to the retailer, who should take it up with the manufacturer. You might usefully talk to the manufacturer, but in some ways it's the retailer's problem to sort it, you have to give them the chance to get it right.

If you are not happy with the solution they propose, talk to a surveyor.

 

[RobWales]

Any update Eugene?

 

[Talulah]

The tube thickness is important. At least it is where the bow thruster is mounted.
The housing on the outside of the tube and the gearbox on the inside of the tube are pulled together clamping the thruster tube inbetween.
Both the curvature of the housing and of the gearbox itself are matched to tube thickness.

 

[EugeneR]

I e-mailed the supplier (yachtbits.co.uk) but not had a response in the short time so far.

Also, no response from the manufacturer yet. They claim their tubes are manufactured for leading manufacturers of bow thruster units nationally and internationally using resins with Lloyds type approval.

Clearly, this one seems to have an issue but what will they do about it?

To clarify, if a product fails, is the manufacturer liable or would it be the entity that sold it to me? Surely, it would be in their interest to rectify this problem correctly - otherwise their insurance won't cover them?

 

[Talulah]

To clarify, if a product fails, is the manufacturer liable or would it be the entity that sold it to me?

It's the entity that sold it to you. Your contract is with them.
The T&C's would almost certainly limit liability to cost of replacement. Not fitting.

Does the original fitter still have the off cuts of the tube?

Forget about emailing Yachtbits. You can't wait. Phone them up and then follow up the contents of the phone call with an email.

 

[RobWales]

I e-mailed the supplier (yachtbits.co.uk) but not had a response in the short time so far.

Also, no response from the manufacturer yet. They claim their tubes are manufactured for leading manufacturers of bow thruster units nationally and internationally using resins with Lloyds type approval.

Clearly, this one seems to have an issue but what will they do about it?

To clarify, if a product fails, is the manufacturer liable or would it be the entity that sold it to me? Surely, it would be in their interest to rectify this problem correctly - otherwise their insurance won't cover them?

IMHO 100% the entity who supplied should rectify the situation!

You buy a new Sony tv from "agb elelectrics" and it goes wrong? I rest my case!

 

[EugeneR]

The manufacturer, Halyard, has come back saying "this type of delamination is commonly seen due to forcing the drill through rather than letting the drill do the work. If too much pressure is applied it will pop through rather than making a clean hole."

In other words, blame the engineer. Clearly, this does not address the reported "fluffiness" inside or the unwinding also reported by the GRP guy.

Also, they say that "the factory have got a copy of the installation instructions for the bow-thruster and based on this they are preparing some guidelines for XXX marine to carry out a repair."

They took the 2 pieces of leftover tube for inspection to ensure there is no quality issue.

What should I expect Yachtbits to do and on what basis? I tried calling but no answer. The legal entity for them is K M Electronics and neither they, nor their supplier, seems to limit liability in their terms.

Is it worth getting a surveyor to confirm whether the tube has manufacturing issues? Also, without removing the tube and/or drilling more holes, how can one validate the "fluffiness" inside?.

 

[RobWales]

Well having done lots of grp work by the way of repairs to and building from bare hulled grp boats I kind of agree with the explanation provided....

Yes you can exert too much pressure when drilling and yes the resultant hole with bits coming out can and do end up looking fluffy....

With a piece of grp that had had matting laid in a random way pulling on these fluffy bits will have no effect other than to pull a few strands of glass out! I suspect though and I stress suspect only....that if spirally wound then pulling at these fluffy bits will be like unravelling a ball of wool....I may be wrong here but I'm thinking they may be correct!

PS...Pop a few pic's up if you have them?

 

[Talulah]

The manufacturer, Halyard, has come back saying "this type of delamination is commonly seen due to forcing the drill through rather than letting the drill do the work. If too much pressure is applied it will pop through rather than making a clean hole."

In other words, blame the engineer. Clearly, this does not address the reported "fluffiness" inside or the unwinding also reported by the GRP guy.

They took the 2 pieces of leftover tube for inspection to ensure there is no quality issue.

I have had personal dealings with Halyard and I must say they are good people to work with. I know their tube winding machine and I would be very surprised if there were any defects in the manufacture of the tube. I would equally expect them to investigate the tube and be honest about any defects found. It would be nice however if one of the off cuts had been kept by yourself for independent verification.
I would not be surprised if the hole had been 'forced' through.
Typically when I make this kind of hole I am using a new hole cutter everytime. (Usually because I can't find the old one.) However, the cutter used by a tradesman could have been used on numerous occasions and could well be blunt. I'm not saying it is but that is where my suspicion would lie.

 

[EugeneR]

Here is the picture that I received from Halyard.

If they are correct then I can imagine the engineer would have experienced some "springy" feedback while drilling. That said, the GRP guys' feedback about it not sounding right when cutting, etc still needs to be explained.

If Halyard's view is correct, should I expect the engineer who drilled the hole, to make good the damage?

Given the picture, which does seem different from what I understood under "unwinding", can this be safely corrected? Most of the previous comments still seem to apply...

Should I just write the £1000-ish cheque and get a new one fitted?

 

[RobWales]

Well having done lots of grp work by the way of repairs to and building from bare hulled grp boats I kind of agree with the explanation provided....

Yes you can exert too much pressure when drilling and yes the resultant hole with bits coming out can and do end up looking fluffy....

With a piece of grp that had had matting laid in a random way pulling on these fluffy bits will have no effect other than to pull a few strands of glass out! I suspect though and I stress suspect only....that if spirally wound then pulling at these fluffy bits will be like unravelling a ball of wool....I may be wrong here but I'm thinking they may be correct!

PS...Pop a few pic's up if you have them?

On now seeing the photo I stand by the above!

If it were mine I would use resin to stick those strands back in place, plenty of matting on the O/D of the tube once installed in the hull and a couple of coats of flow coat inside and out.

But thats what I would do...not advising you what to do.

 

[Talulah]

If it were me I would just be repairing that tube.
The main thing is you want the gasket supplied with the thruster to create a water tight seal when it is trapped between the gearbox and tube.
Secondly, you don't want water to wick it's way through the fibreglass.
I would cut off the unwound length of fibre. Paint the exposed fibreglass with some epoxy resin and then fill with some epoxy resin mixed with talc or alternatively just use some gelcoat filler. I wouldn't be adversely worried.

 

[yachtbits]

Hello Chaps

this is actually the first I've heard of this problem, I will however check our mail server tomorrow to trace the email sent on Wednesday. It should have come to my inbox, but I have no recollection of seeing it. I will advise back once I have checked this out.

Halyard, are probably the market leaders and we supply them because of this reputation. We stand by their product and would be shocked to find a quality issue with one of their tubes. It does look like a solution has already been reached, but we would have been pro-active in getting answers from Halyard had we needed to.

However, one thing that has been noticed. Very rapidly, our liability was being discussed before the cause of the problem had even been established. I do feel this was a slightly unfair reaction in the time this tread has run, especially as the installer who may well have caused this problem, had not been named. Presumably he had inspected the tube before installation?

As of today, our terms and conditions have been revised to specifically limit our liability to the value of the goods and/or services supplied by us from now on. This does not mean that we will not do everything we can to resolve problems when they occur.

Kevin Smith
Managing Director

 

[RobWales]

Hello Chaps

this is actually the first I've heard of this problem, I will however check our mail server tomorrow to trace the email sent on Wednesday. It should have come to my inbox, but I have no recollection of seeing it. I will advise back once I have checked this out.

Halyard, are probably the market leaders and we supply them because of this reputation. We stand by their product and would be shocked to find a quality issue with one of their tubes. It does look like a solution has already been reached, but we would have been pro-active in getting answers from Halyard had we needed to.

However, one thing that has been noticed. Very rapidly, our liability was being discussed before the cause of the problem had even been established. I do feel this was a slightly unfair reaction in the time this tread has run, especially as the installer who may well have caused this problem, had not been named. Presumably he had inspected the tube before installation?

As of today, our terms and conditions have been revised to specifically limit our liability to the value of the goods and/or services supplied by us from now on. This does not mean that we will not do everything we can to resolve problems when they occur.

Kevin Smith
Managing Director

Its a forum! we are here to help eachother? read the thread and ask yourself.......has the OP had satisfaction?
NO...........hence his post here!
Maybe you should converse with him and not on here?