New plotter

pvb said:
Indeed! But in a few years' time, hopefully the nightmare of fiddly wiring associated with NMEA0183 and SeaTalk will be a thing of the past.
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That assumes everyone or at least market majority want N2K ..... I think you'll find that is likely not the case. Many people are quite happy to have 0183 as they often have moderate needs only. many boats still use standalone gear and reluctant to put hand in pocket to replace working gear.

With the increased possibilities to feed 0183 and other into WiFi ... the world is changing rapidly ...
 
Baggywrinkle said:
I don't think complicated is quite the right word - proprietary is more accurate IMO. They always attempted to lock users into their eco-system - which in turn created a market for gateways and gadgets to join Raymarine equipment to the rest of the world.
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Absolutely ..... that's the rub.

Happens in most retail :

Video - Beta vs VHS
Computers - IBM PBasic vs Quickbasic
Even Car Diagnostics .... there's only basically 3 car Diagnostic programs - but Car Brands modify front end to try make you only use their system

List goes on.
 
Since the original question has been answered and the thread is threatening to deteriorate into a slugfest, I'll risk a hijack.

For the kind of sailing I do, mostly Solent pottering, with the odd trip further afield and French canal ambitions, I don't NEED a plotter, but it's definitely a nice to have, I also don't need to integrate everything, nor do I have the budget for it, so what to those that know think about using a daylight viewable tablet as a plotter?

It would live under the sprayhood, in a decent case. On the face of it, it would seem to give a much bigger screen for a lot less money, with the option to add AIS reception for around £100, which seems like a bit of a bargain, especially when I looked at the price of radar reflectors recently!

Since my experience of building PCs has lead me to believe strongly that buying bits from different suppliers is a bad idea because allegedly compatible parts don't always paly nicely together, I'm thinking London Chartplotters.
 
Stemar said:
Since the original question has been answered and the thread is threatening to deteriorate into a slugfest, I'll risk a hijack.

For the kind of sailing I do, mostly Solent pottering, with the odd trip further afield and French canal ambitions, I don't NEED a plotter, but it's definitely a nice to have, I also don't need to integrate everything, nor do I have the budget for it, so what to those that know think about using a daylight viewable tablet as a plotter?

It would live under the sprayhood, in a decent case. On the face of it, it would seem to give a much bigger screen for a lot less money, with the option to add AIS reception for around £100, which seems like a bit of a bargain, especially when I looked at the price of radar reflectors recently!

Since my experience of building PCs has lead me to believe strongly that buying bits from different suppliers is a bad idea because allegedly compatible parts don't always paly nicely together, I'm thinking London Chartplotters.
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I understand your reasoning ... most people are not the ocean girdling sailors they like to give impression of. Most are like you and me .. coast hoppers with occasional forays into offshore to get to an island or land relative ly close but out of sight.
I also dare comment that most of the gear is only used in basic form - the extras bundled in and connected are great conversation pieces over cocktails with others moored in marina ... but seldom actually used to full out there.

World is moving away from proprietary gear .. moving ever more into open source. This will hit the marine market with a force that will not be stopped. So many other arenas in life have had it .. its only time ...

For me in order of descending importance :

Compass
Echo Sounder
Speed through water
VHF
Plotter

But I'm old school ... but I am embracing a new path where WiFi on board is going to connect my gear ... another story though.
 
pvb said:
See post 39.
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We can all find a specific item or reason for x .... post 39 does that.

I have not said how / why / what with the WiFi ... but I'd put bet down - that WiFi will expand and become serious on board .....

Blimey - already guy came on my boat few weeks back and asked why he couldn't read my plotter / AIS etc. on his phone !! Like I replied - I am still waiting receipt of my WiFi box ... (received it now .. 45 quid and will be fitted soon). That box will be fixed to rear of plotter with very short wires .. power from the "power lead" into plotter. Few sentences to sort and when he next comes on board -0 I just give him the pasword and he can sit back.
 
dutyhog said:
Our Furuno GP39 GPS has failed after just two years' use, and I suppose can't be repaired. This thread makes me seriously consider the Onwa KP38 or 39 as a replacement. I hadn't particularly wanted a chart plotter as such (when wanted we use a Toughbook and an iphone with UKHO and Antares charts), but why not have more than basic GPS at a lower price than a new Furuno, which may not last two years again.

The GPS is connected to a Standard Horizon GX1200 VHF. That should be OK as it reads any NMEA version from v2.0 and above - the Onwa has NMEA v 3.01 and 4.11.

We also use an Raymarine ST60 multidisplay. It did read the Furuno's NMEA (v1.5, 2.0, 3.1). But the ST60 is so old it doesn’t mention NMEA versions, so I can't tell if it can read Onwa NMEA v 3.01 . Does anyone know if that's likely to work? I'll approach Aves Marine if the forum doesn’t know.
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You might be interested in this.
Faulty goods? You've still got rights when the guarantee runs out.
 
Refueler said:
That assumes everyone or at least market majority want N2K ..... I think you'll find that is likely not the case. Many people are quite happy to have 0183 as they often have moderate needs only. many boats still use standalone gear and reluctant to put hand in pocket to replace working gear.

With the increased possibilities to feed 0183 and other into WiFi ... the world is changing rapidly ...
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It doesn't matter if you, or anyone else, wants N2K or not, it's what the manufacturers are building into almost all new equipment. Every big name MFD has N2K and almost none fit 0183 any more. All of the smaller (4") displays for wind, depth, etc are N2K. Transducers and sensors are moving over to N2K, for instance, a depth (or wind) transducer on a N2K network makes the data available on every N2K display on the boat. Autopilots are N2K now, so the heading data is available across the network (MFDs have heading data so can be orientated "head up", radar will overlay etc). and wind, XTE, waypoint, route data is available to the AP for steering to wind, waypoint or route.

VHF sets are increasingly being produced with N2K, as are AIS transponders, it won't be long before there are no 0183 VHFs being produced and that will pretty much be the end of 0183 as far as main stream marine electronics are concerned. New kit that has no N2K capability will shrivel up and die.

0183 cannot do mush of that at all and wifi isn't going to replace N2K for networking. Where N2K isn't suitable for high speed/volume data, Ethernet is generally used these days (radar, hi-res sonar etc) In general, wifi radar hasn't worked out very well.

increased possibilities to feed 0183 and other into WiFi
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There are no increased possibilities, with regard to 0183 specifically. N2K data can just as easily be sent over wifi and most big name MFDS have the facility built it from the factory, no need for external ad-hoc "boxes". Wifi isn't being used to create networks in the way N2K is, it's mostly just being used to send data that has been collated over the N2K network by the MFD and sent to a tablet or phone. "Aftermarket" "boxes" are doing the same for networks where the MFD does not have inbuilt wifi (usually older MFDs) or where people are still using 0183 equipment, typically using a multiplexor/wifi box to broadcast to a tablet/phone. This lacks some of the features of a modern MFD with inbuilt wifi, but it's a perfectly usable system where the equipment is still on 0183.
 
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Paul - N2K is of course more capable than 0183 - of course it is because of its ability to carry to / from / accept more units into the network. No-one denies that.

What is argued though is this market push that we should all go N2K ... which for many is unnecessary.

I agree that established brands are moving away from 0183 - but I would suggest that is not because they want to change general market to N2K ... but to try and slow down the inevitable march away from their labels.

I have no idea if you have ever watched as example the RC World ... it was same there. Established Brands making all kinds of market changes and steps to slow down the march away from their systems. Dealers / Competition organisers fell into the Brand only trap ... to find later they had been left behind ...

You say that WiFi is not good enough ? You should check out what companies like Yuneec ... DJI .... and many others in the Drone market did with WiFi ..... sitting in my workshop is a drone that used 2.4 and 5.8 band WiFi ... before I made error and ditched in the river - she had regularly completed 5 - 6km flights with full video / control bi-control.

We can move with the times or hang on to old ... N2K is old ...

I had N2K with previous gear - but in reality I had no need for it ... new gear available that no longer needed a cable ... and certainly not the N2K cable stuff Lowrance gave me !

Early wireless stuff on boats was iffy to say the least .......... but to apply same to latest gear coming out to create wireless networks ? Wrong. The revolution is coming ...
 
Refueler said:
Paul - N2K is of course more capable than 0183 - of course it is because of its ability to carry to / from / accept more units into the network. No-one denies that.

What is argued though is this market push that we should all go N2K ... which for many is unnecessary.

I agree that established brands are moving away from 0183 - but I would suggest that is not because they want to change general market to N2K ... but to try and slow down the inevitable march away from their labels.

I have no idea if you have ever watched as example the RC World ... it was same there. Established Brands making all kinds of market changes and steps to slow down the march away from their systems. Dealers / Competition organisers fell into the Brand only trap ... to find later they had been left behind ...

You say that WiFi is not good enough ? You should check out what companies like Yuneec ... DJI .... and many others in the Drone market did with WiFi ..... sitting in my workshop is a drone that used 2.4 and 5.8 band WiFi ... before I made error and ditched in the river - she had regularly completed 5 - 6km flights with full video / control bi-control.

We can move with the times or hang on to old ... N2K is old ...

I had N2K with previous gear - but in reality I had no need for it ... new gear available that no longer needed a cable ... and certainly not the N2K cable stuff Lowrance gave me !

Early wireless stuff on boats was iffy to say the least .......... but to apply same to latest gear coming out to create wireless networks ? Wrong. The revolution is coming ...
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Don't hold your breath.
 
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Refueler said:
... new gear available that no longer needed a cable ...
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But presumably, whatever this mysterious new gear does, it will need electrical power. So you've got to run a cable to it anyway. In which case, running an N2K cable will give it power and reliably handle the data, without the complication of wifi. Seems a no-brainer....
 
I am amazed at the reluctance to embrace other ideas .... world evolves ... its the 'nature of the beast'.

N2K is spoken about here as if its the NEW amazing standard ........... its been around for decades ... Then why has it not already kicked out 0183 ?

I am sorry to say this - but IMHO N2K has been too long ... it will be surpassed by other protocol .. it will go the way of Seatalk ...

And 'pvb' ..... many people are now using WiFi to tablets etc. The power side being hours longer than computer etc. - very easy to just stick a micro or C usb cable in to charge or even run it if powers running down.

I compared guys Navionics on his Garmin unit he has on his boat - a latest update - to my free K-Charts .... OK at present K Charts are not tablet compatible, as I understand it - that could change - but I could not see any advantage in the areas we looked at in paying for Navionics ... the level of detail was similar. I do not say this is universal or global - but it certainly is the case here .. and we looked at the Swedish Archipelago - similar detail ... only a few colour differences.
 
Refueler said:
I am amazed at the reluctance to embrace other ideas .... world evolves ... its the 'nature of the beast'.
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I'm very willing to embrace new ideas, if they're sensible.

Refueler said:
N2K is spoken about here as if its the NEW amazing standard ........... its been around for decades ... Then why has it not already kicked out 0183 ?
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No it isn't spoken about that way. It is steadily kicking out NMEA0183, as PaulRainbow explained in post 91.

Incidentally, you've just been kicked off the forum for a while in an attempt to help you realise that endless arguing is counter-productive, but the very day they let you back in you're at it again!

Refueler said:
And 'pvb' ..... many people are now using WiFi to tablets etc. The power side being hours longer than computer etc. - very easy to just stick a micro or C usb cable in to charge or even run it if powers running down.
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So where does the information come from in the first place? What will power the depth transducer, the log transducer, the wind transducer, the VHF radio, etc? You said all this will be "new gear" running wifi. It won't be.
 
Incidentally, you've just been kicked off the forum for a while in an attempt to help you realise that endless arguing is counter-productive, but the very day they let you back in you're at it again!
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Not at all .. just supporting my position and PoV ... which is what you and Paul are doing with your own.

I accept you two do not agree with me. That's fine - but get off my back. I do not accept your points as they try to target items to ridicule instead of considering as whole.
 
Refueler said:
I do not accept your points as they try to target items to ridicule instead of considering as whole.
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No ridicule, simply questions, which you seem unwilling to answer. OK, so help me by explaining how these mysterious new devices are going to work by wifi without a cable attached to them.
 
Refueler said:
I will not rise to your baiting.

I rebuffed anothers insults and was banned for 3 days ... seemingly 'he' got away with insulting me.
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I'm not baiting, the forums are for an exchange of views. You put forward a view, I asked you about it, you accused me of "baiting". I simply don't understand.
 
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