pvb
Well-Known Member
If they'd have stuck to just one proprietary system it might have been better!
New plotter
- Thread starter Laysula
- Start date
If they'd have stuck to just one proprietary system it might have been better!
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
You can make wireless connections robust, but to do so requires very expensive antenna arrays and powerful signal processing harware to seperate the signal from the interference - currently it is cheaper to simply wire them together if you want robust communication.
pvb
Well-Known Member
If you've got to run power cables, you might as well run an NMEA2000 cable - it will provide power to most items and give assured data transfer.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Agree. The wires and metal struts of a boat's rigging, along with a lot of wiring must make the RF environment of a boat very difficult to work with.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Future proof would generally mean installing an Ethernet infrastructure these days. On my boat I have some N2k, some Ethernet and some ST1/STNG. None of it has been complicated, just expensive. I feel confident that going forwards the NMEA2k and Ethernet cables I've just installed will give me everything I need before selling the boat. 0183 is a dead duck in 2021 though, and while compatibility is handy it's not a feature I'd base a decision on. If compatibility were a huge issue and budget tight I'd probably be looking on Ebay instead, there are plenty of people like me selling great condition used kit that's been replaced before end of life.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, or why you're saying it, but I think you're being purposely harsh there. Realistically the STNG - N2k is just a different connector (and, as a Navico user I'll say the STNG connector is better in every way!) and is a single cable to convert which costs in line with the other cables so not really a huge deal. Radar will usually split at the base of the mast anyway and likely use Ethernet connections. I split mine with a coupler and went back to a standard switch which now feeds two plotter MFDs as well as providing web access for all the devices on board. I can't see a scenario where I'd knowingly choose to route the radar cable all the way to the helm in one run without a cut.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
I'm not being at all harsh, i'm pointing out the additional costs and/or work involved.
Yes, it is just a cable to connect a STNG device to a N2K backbone, it's an expensive cable at £34 for 1M (which is the longest female spur cable). But what if the 2 devices are more than 1M apart ? Rather than a simple 2M N2K cable you'd need a 1M N2K cable and the converter cable. Gets pricey if you have a few STNG devices to connect to a N2K backbone. You can of course split the networks. but you then need two lots of different parts, you have to build both networks and then connect them with a STNG to N2K backbone adaptor cable.
What if, as part of all of the STNG kit you purchased you have a 1M spur cable left over, but you need a 1M backone cable to complete the network ? You have to go buy one, because unlike N2K they are different.
Buy a pile of Garmin/standard N2K kit and it all just fits together, no odd cables, no adaptor cables.
Yes, most modern radars are Ethernet based
No need for radar to split at the mast base. If the plugs will pass through the mast/deck, no need, unless you think you ight take the mast down sometime soon.
Garmin plugs can be fitted with removable collars, so usually fit through the mast/deck. Raymarine plugs are more bulky and usually don't fit, so have to be cut and joined. The last Garmin plotter/radar i fitted went straight to the cockpit, nothing else to connect to the Garmin Marine Network (Ethernet), so need need to cut the cable, that was long enough to reach the cockpit in one run, the mast had just been down for new rigging etc, we'll worry about cutting the cable in 10-15 years time, maybe.
Two comparative installation in the last few weeks. Both had existing ST60s etc, so needed a ST to STNG converter (good bits of kit, very good) and all of the old ST gear integrated and worked great.
1) Axiom plotter, Quantum radar, Emtrak AIS, Standard Horizon VHF with N2K. Converter cables needed for the AIS and VHF, splitting the system didn't add up for just two devices. Radar power and Raynet (Ethernet) cables just long enough to get into the boat, to the base of the mast, plus about 2 feet, but had to cut the plug off of the Raynet cable as it was far to big to go the the keel stepped mast, although it isn't going to need the mast taking down for some time, it had just been fully re-rigged. We still need a Raynet cable to connect to the MFD at the helm, we still need to splice or join somehow the cut cable at the mast base and wee need to get from the mast base to wherever the the cable from the helm ends up reaching to. We could fit an RJ45 to the severed cable and use a connector to run some standard Ethernet cable back to the chart table area, but we then need to somehow connect the Ethernet cable to a Raynet plug, which in turn needs connecting the the Raynet plug coming from the helm, so some more splicing and a £60 or so connector cable to join them both together. Time is money and splicing properly takes time. The power cable was 5 metrres short of the chart table, so some more splicing to add to the job, along with the cable.
2) Garmin GPSMAP, Garmin Radar, Emtrak AIS, Icom VHF. One converter cable, to get the AIS to the network, VHF connected to NMEA0183. Radar and Garmin Marine Network (Ethernet) cables both long enough to get to the cockpit with cable to spare didn't have to cut the data cable, used a removable collar and it came through the deck stepped mast and then the deck via a Scanstrut deck gland. The mast had only just been down for new rigging etc, so no point putting a join in, can easily be done later if need be. The power cable was more than long enough to het back to the chart table, had a few metres left over. No joins, no splicing, no extra cables or connectors, job done.
That's just two examples, using the last two installation i've done, very recently. It just happens that one was Garmin, similar results might have been achieved with Simrad/B&G.
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DoubleEnder
Well-Known Member
AAAARRRGGGGHHHH that makes me feel quite scared
I have a compass. A depth sounder. Binoculars. A windex. A VHF with masthead antenna and a hand held VHF. Paper charts. A hand bearing compass. Pencils, Breton plotter. I confess I lost my dividers. None of these things are connected to each other apart from the radio and the antenna. I use all of them but not all of the time
my phone has a GPS. So does the VHF radio.
oh I have aPLB as well if I’m alone.
to me that seems like a huge amount of kit! More than enough For me.
but to each his or her own, of course.
DoubleEnder
Well-Known Member
I have a Griffin Survivor. I’ve used it for 5 seasons and it still seems to work fine. I think it is IP55 so not ‘waterproof’ as such but it’s certainly good enough for rain and spray. When there is a lot of water on the screen the touchscreen function becomes a bit flaky. In these circumstances I just wipe it dry. If I had a spray hood it wouldn’t be an issue. The case is pretty well armoured as well, so not the end of the world if you drop it.
If you go for iPad,do make sure to get a model that has cellular connectivity not just WiFi. The GPS chip is part of the cellular chip. Apple don’t always make this completely clear.
My Navionics sub is about £40 per annum. This covers UK, Ireland and Holland but in fact includes the French coast as far west as Brest. The charts are updated in real time, though you do have to manually ask for the update.
You can get Android tablets for less money, eg Samsung Galaxy are probably 40% cheaper. However, I find the user interface less appealing but that may be simply familiarity. Unbranded Android tablets are available at very low cost, but I have no experience of these.
A tablet is honestly not as good as a dedicated plotter in some ways The screen is not as bright. They are not as waterproof. They have very little in the way of nav functions. Waypoints are very limited in Navionics, and all sorts of other functions are absent. You have to think about recharging. You can’t ping the line when racing. Etc etc
But I found I was using the tablet far more than my SH plotter for all the navigation I do. This is quite limited, between E Coast and Devon, a few cross channels. But combined with paper charts it was fine! And when you are not sailing you can send email, surf the web, watch a movie, get detailed weather info, listen to music, or the BBC….. and take it home with you.
When the SH gave up after 12 years I decided not to replace it.
I have survived so far. And when we think about what we had when we went sailing 30 years ago I feel very lucky indeed.
This is just my experience on a boat where space is extremely limited and I am very unwilling to cut or drill holes.
Other views exist, but this suits me.
vas
Well-Known Member
just a note, N2K is not new as a tech by any means as it's a canbus incarnation, protocol running in cars, planes, home automation, inverters ( 
), factories et al for 30-40yrs already. the four cable implementation is clever and easy to deal with. Mind you can buy connectors and a few longer "patch" cables and cut to size - just did two 40cm cables to connect my two engines' control boxes to the relocated main backbone. That was out of a 2m garmin cable with two new connectors (screw type, much easier than solder ones!)
V.
), factories et al for 30-40yrs already. the four cable implementation is clever and easy to deal with. Mind you can buy connectors and a few longer "patch" cables and cut to size - just did two 40cm cables to connect my two engines' control boxes to the relocated main backbone. That was out of a 2m garmin cable with two new connectors (screw type, much easier than solder ones!)V.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Hang on, earlier in the thread you confessed to having a tablet with Navionics charts. Forgot to mention that?
DoubleEnder
Well-Known Member
Whoops yes I do. My mistake.
pvb
Well-Known Member
DoubleEnder
Well-Known Member
No but I do boil my alarm clockSo you're not quite as "Slocum" as you claimed!
pvb
Well-Known Member
Ha! That'll go over many people's heads!
Tamar
Well-Known Member
My standard horizon c300 is still going strong, I bought it 15 years ago for my moody. It's currently in use on my charter boat, on all day every day. I wonder if the one in the op would be as long lived.
pvb
Well-Known Member
I think you know the answer to that!
Sea-Fever
Well-Known Member
Well that is true enough.
My comment re future proofing was more a general swipe at the nature of the phrase...rather than n2k specifically....because you can't future proof anything.
As far as the rf environment goes on a boat. Well it's pretty good considering that when you need to use it you are away from most common sources of interference...heck boat engines don't even have HT leads. Boats are confined spaces effectively in the middle of nowhere....a veritable rf desert. Masts and rigging are not going to affect the sort of wavelengths that wifi works at.
Why the main manufacturers can't get their stuff to play properly is reminiscent of the first years of domestic wifi...remember having to go into all the settings on your router or NIC and bugger around with it?
Bandwidth over wifi is unlikely to be an issue just like it isn't at home any more.
I don't think n2k will go away any time soon just like 0183 is still supported by a few manufacturers and pvb's point about power is a fair one but there are some strong arguments for the manufacturers to go with wifi.....even if they're currently making a predictable hash of it.
Mast top sensor applications powered by solar are one strong area....imagine not drilling holes in your deck.
Rappey
Well-Known Member
A tablet feels far better to use than a plotter due to its power and screen resolution making the charts so clear and no delay. There are some very bright ones around now but then it starts getting more expensive, and as mentioned they do have their draw backs.
It would be wonderful to have all modern instrumentation but I couldn't justify the price when budget items do the same basic job, just without all the extra features.
I often sail sat forward of the wheel using the autopilot and contrary to belief you can often sail 10 miles at a weekend in the solent without once having to take avoiding action so the traditional line of instruments above the hatch work well for me.
Location of a plotter is one I can't figure out, at the helm but then it can't be seen by anyone in the cockpit without getting up, or mounted forward around the companionway but then the helmsman can't reach it.
It would be wonderful to have all modern instrumentation but I couldn't justify the price when budget items do the same basic job, just without all the extra features.
I often sail sat forward of the wheel using the autopilot and contrary to belief you can often sail 10 miles at a weekend in the solent without once having to take avoiding action
so the traditional line of instruments above the hatch work well for me.Location of a plotter is one I can't figure out, at the helm but then it can't be seen by anyone in the cockpit without getting up, or mounted forward around the companionway but then the helmsman can't reach it.
StUrrock
Well-Known Member
In bright sunlight we noticed an imperfection behind the screen after 2 years of ownership, the screen was changed FOC in a 4 day turn around.
Onwa response is very quick in case of operational queries, eg they have a piece of software that can convert WPs and Routes etc from different formats so they can be imported them into the Onwa plotter, I had a query re the procedure and they responded quickly and clearly with what the steps are.
pvb
Well-Known Member
And imagine the fun of having to go up the mast to replace the rechargeable batteries when they fail!