New Nordhavn 41

[MapisM]

Of course what they don’t say is a planing boat wouldn’t have gone aground

Good point, probably in that particular case a lower draft and a higher speed would have saved the day.
But in fairness, I wouldn't recommend a planing boat to anyone interested in cruising British Columbia.
And in her type/size bracket, the N57 was a stunning boat indeed, perfectly suited for cruising those waters, and also others even more extreme.
In more ways than one, better than their current models, which on top of being much more built to a budget, also trade a bit more space for a silly layout, where the crew must constantly go up or down some stairs in order to move around the boat.
Trouble is, they are way overrated within their market niche, and also in the second hand market they command prices which are beyond a joke.

As an example, there is one currently for sale in S'hampton. 2004 vintage and in great conditions, judging from the pics.
In comparison with my planing tub of exactly the same size and year, she has much less external spaces, her swim platform is a practical joke, the guest cabins are nowhere near as convenient and they share one head for both.
Oh, and she doesn't have a transom passerelle, which would also be difficult to retrofit.
Add up the fact that one cruises at 8 kts and the other 3 times faster, and it's easy to understand why P boats always sold like hot cakes in places like the Med, Southern Florida, etc. compared to any trawler - let alone Nordies.
In spite of all that, I would have chosen a N57 over any P boat of similar size without thinking twice, because I have a soft spot for cruising at D speed in almost sailboat-like silence.
I also appreciate that the construction is a sort of investment in terms of lower future maintenance, compared to the generally more "squeezed"powerplants of P boats.
Not to mention fuel, which is bound to affect much less the total cost of ownership in D boats - though obviously that depends on the mileage.

But, and it's a HUGE but, more than 3 times the price? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!?
I would gladly challenge even the most hardcore Nordhavn fan to compare a N57 with any P boat of similar size from a decent builder.
I don't think anyone in his right mind could pretend that there is twice the value in the Nordie, let alone more than triple!

In other words, imho there are only two categories of boaters who think it's worth spending that much more for having - in several ways - so much less:
The first are true blue water boaters, who could take salt water when in need of a blood transfusion.
A category which imho would be better off in a sailboat, but fair winds to them anyhow.
The second are boaters who actually never experienced long non-stop passages, and only dream of what they are all about.
For them, at least there is the consolation that they might not take a huge hit when (not if) they will sell the boat to someone else with the same dream, after understanding what it really means taking forever to get nowhere...

 

[Bouba]

Good point, probably in that particular case a lower draft and a higher speed would have saved the day.
But in fairness, I wouldn't recommend a planing boat to anyone interested in cruising British Columbia.
And in her type/size bracket, the N57 was a stunning boat indeed, perfectly suited for cruising those waters, and also others even more extreme.
In more ways than one, better than their current models, which on top of being much more built to a budget, also trade a bit more space for a silly layout, where the crew must constantly go up or down some stairs in order to move around the boat.
Trouble is, they are way overrated within their market niche, and also in the second hand market they command prices which are beyond a joke.

As an example, there is one currently for sale in S'hampton. 2004 vintage and in great conditions, judging from the pics.
In comparison with my planing tub of exactly the same size and year, she has much less external spaces, her swim platform is a practical joke, the guest cabins are nowhere near as convenient and they share one head for both.
Oh, and she doesn't have a transom passerelle, which would also be difficult to retrofit.
Add up the fact that one cruises at 8 kts and the other 3 times faster, and it's easy to understand why P boats always sold like hot cakes in places like the Med, Southern Florida, etc. compared to any trawler - let alone Nordies.
In spite of all that, I would have chosen a N57 over any P boat of similar size without thinking twice, because I have a soft spot for cruising at D speed in almost sailboat-like silence.
I also appreciate that the construction is a sort of investment in terms of lower future maintenance, compared to the generally more "squeezed"powerplants of P boats.
Not to mention fuel, which is bound to affect much less the total cost of ownership in D boats - though obviously that depends on the mileage.

But, and it's a HUGE but, more than 3 times the price? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!?
I would gladly challenge even the most hardcore Nordhavn fan to compare a N57 with any P boat of similar size from a decent builder.
I don't think anyone in his right mind could pretend that there is twice the value in the Nordie, let alone more than triple!

In other words, imho there are only two categories of boaters who think it's worth spending that much more for having - in several ways - so much less:
The first are true blue water boaters, who could take salt water when in need of a blood transfusion.
A category which imho would be better off in a sailboat, but fair winds to them anyhow.
The second are boaters who actually never experienced long non-stop passages, and only dream of what they are all about.
For them, at least there is the consolation that they might not take a huge hit when (not if) they will sell the boat to someone else with the same dream, after understanding what it really means taking forever to get nowhere...

A Nordhavn has always been the boat in my dreams. Although lately I’ve been dreaming of a Fleming, perhaps I’m growing up

 

[MapisM]

Just wait another few years, and you'll be dreaming of whizzing around the CdA with an Itama.....

 

[vas]

so Joint Decision (is that the reason it went aground in the first place?) rested on it's keel and the one stab with no issues?
all these boats look a bit more top heavy than I'd feel comfortable with tbh. Are they balasted?

V.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

so Joint Decision (is that the reason it went aground in the first place?) rested on it's keel and the one stab with no issues?
all these boats look a bit more top heavy than I'd feel comfortable with tbh. Are they balasted?

V.

Yes, heavily ballasted

 

[EricJ]

so Joint Decision (is that the reason it went aground in the first place?) rested on it's keel and the one stab with no issues?
all these boats look a bit more top heavy than I'd feel comfortable with tbh. Are they balasted?

V.

Yep, according to the specs the 41 has 1814 kg of ballast glassed in.

 

[vas]

thanks, still amazed how little seems to be below w/l...

 

[EricJ]

Did Nordhavn produce in US in the past? Now you hear about Taiwan, China and Turkey. The 120 was built in China; sounds to me difficult to manage the build of such complex boat.

 

[ARE]

I came across this Nordhavn video where the new 41 was discussed:

A very interesting one if you look for this type of boat. No flybridge but therefore less high; some of the smaller Nordhavns are very tall I think. I like the more modern cabinetry and central galley. Guest cabin looks a bit compromised with bunks. There is also a layout option with only one cabin and larger storage. They use twin Betamarine engines (had to look them up, but they have Kubota base engines), wet exhaust.
ABT stabilizers, generator , aircon, washer/dryer, freezer, Garmin plotter and radar, all included. Seems good value at a price of 752k USD. Very nice complete spec list: https://nordhavn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/N41-Specs-24Jun9.pdf

This boat is to be built at a yard in Turkey. Nordhavn seems to work with different yards (in lower cost countries) to build their model range. Perhaps challenging from a quality assurance point of view.
what will be the competition for this boat? Interested to hear opinions on this one.

I was also surprised about the Betamarine propulsion engine choice, I know they are well though of in the local small sailboat market. But a Beta in a Nordhavn for me is a strange choice.

 

[Bouba]

I was also surprised about the Betamarine propulsion engine choice, I know they are well though of in the local small sailboat market. But a Beta in a Nordhavn for me is a strange choice.

Perhaps it was the owners decision. I’ve heard, for example, farmers from the Mid West won’t buy a boat unless it has a John Deere in it

 

[ARE]

Perhaps it was the owners decision. I’ve heard, for example, farmers from the Mid West won’t buy a boat unless it has a John Deere in it

Possibly, but I was thinking more about the service and support network. By the very nature these boats will turn up all over the world and I don’t believe Betamarine have that kind of network.

 

[Bouba]

A Gardner is probably the best engine for a boat like a Nordhavn but you’d have difficulty finding spares anywhere

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Possibly, but I was thinking more about the service and support network. By the very nature these boats will turn up all over the world and I don’t believe Betamarine have that kind of network.

It is a rather odd decision. Here is their dealer network

International Seagoing - Beta Marine

Heavily concentrated in France but a bit sparse elsewhere

You would have thought Volvo would have been a more obvious choice at this sort of horsepower. Maybe it was a cost decision but at $750,000 you wouldnt think so. Btw I know that price was quoted by ybw but I've seen a lower price quoted somewhere only I cant find it

 

[ARE]

It is a rather odd decision. Here is their dealer network

International Seagoing - Beta Marine

Heavily concentrated in France but a bit sparse elsewhere

You would have thought Volvo would have been a more obvious choice at this sort of horsepower. Maybe it was a cost decision but at $750,000 you wouldnt think so. Btw I know that price was quoted by ybw but I've seen a lower price quoted somewhere only I cant find it

I would of thought that there would not have been much cost difference in the 75hp marine diesel engine market. Volvo or Yanmar is the obvious choice, but maybe a Nanni would be another option.

I know how important worldwide warranty is to boat builders, it just surprised me that Nordhavn have picked Beta Marine.

 

[TwoHooter]

Very interesting thread. Well, I would say that, wouldn't I?

There are five 41s in build at the moment, and they will be followed by another five, and Nordhavn owners tend to be quite fond of sharing their experiences with the world ? so I expect there will be plenty of information to come.

Some specific points -

• GRP v metal - I think it's simply the case that it would be very hard to build a boat the size of the 148 in GRP. I like having a GRP boat (of the Nordhavn quality) but when we were boat hunting we looked at Lurssen, Stevens etc. and would have been willing to buy one if it had met all our requirements (none of them did). On the other hand I dislike the fact that on every steel boat I've ever seen you can't inspect the inside surface of the hull at every point, and it is usually the inside that rusts.
• Factories - Nordhavn (Pacific Asian Enterprises) is a Calfornian company. They design the boats, own the moulds, and contract the actual build in yards who they feel confident about. They used to build in the USA but for the reasons we all know about the production shifted to the far East and now to Turkey.
• Flybridge - I don't know why a flybridge option is not offered on the 41 but I'm sure there is a good reason. On our size of boat (the N40) the second hand market prefers a flybridge but some of the bigger boats sell better without a FB and I'm sure the 41s will find their own place in the market. From a purely personal point of view my wife and I would not want to be without a FB because we are fair weather coastal cruisers and love being up on top (see below). I also find a FB very helpful for docking - although I know some owners who dock their boats from the bridge (Pilot House).
• Guest cabin - well of course this depends on the use of the boat. Ours has 2 stacked bunks in a small compartment but it's adequate for crew or the very occasional visitor and has plenty of locker space which is the crucial thing. If you want guests to have a "stateroom" then you need a bigger boat and a bigger wallet.
• Engines - Most Nordies are built to cross oceans. That's their raison d'etre. To get the maximum range you usually need a single slow-revving engine. But many owners also opt for the back-up wing engine, which ends up being under-used dead-weight 99.9% of the time. I believe the theory behind the 41 engine spec is that these boats are not actually going to cross oceans, so they don't need every last mile of range, and therefore it's better to have two engines which are used all the time rather than one big one and a little one which never gets used. We had a Beta engine in our first boat and found the build quality to be excellent and the after-sales service stunningly good. Absolutely first class. These are very simple engines - you can easily carry all the spares you need without spending much money and any half-decent mechanic can work on them.
• The natural competition for the N41 would be our boat, the N40. So if there's a market for the 41 why isn't the 40 still being built? The answer is that orders dried up in 2013 by which time the cost of a 40 fully fitted out and delivered from China was a million bucks, and not many people want to pay a million for a 40ft boat. Nordhavn have kept the price of the 41 significantly below a million and the fact they are selling suggests they've got it right.

Putting my (unpaid) salesman's hat on, buyers of the N41 will get an extra benefit: membership of the Nordhavn Owner's Group. This is an amazing organisation, free of charge, exclusive to owners and captains of the boats, and is the only forum I have ever belonged to where there is never a troll, never any nastyness, very seldom anything off-topic. Because there are 570 boats in the fleet (as of yesterday), cruising all over the world in every time zone, you can ask a question at any time of the day or night about anything from the engine to the washer/drier to the thread on an obscure bolt and get an answer within a few hours, frequently from someone in another continent. There was recently a question from a member with an N40 anchored off Little Cayman with a leaking fuel tank boss and within 6 hours I had fixed him up with a repair in Grand Cayman using my own local contacts. This sort of thing happens every day, routinely. The group is run by owners but Nordhavn monitor it and there are experts from all the main suppliers ready to lend a hand whenever needed. The NOG is possibly the second best thing about owning a Nordie (the boat itself being the best).

The flybridge view (same for any boat really)

 

[MapisM]

so Joint Decision (is that the reason it went aground in the first place?) rested on it's keel and the one stab with no issues?
all these boats look a bit more top heavy than I'd feel comfortable with tbh. Are they balasted?

Allegedly the stab fin only suffered a cracked winglet, which is the most surprising thing.

And yes, all Nordies are ballasted for good, as Deleted User already confirmed.
Afaik, this is true for all pure displacement boats.
Some of the steel ones aren't literally ballasted, because they have an oversized keel shoe, thick and heavy enough to ballast the boat as much as necessary, with the added bonus of the additional strength and an even lower CoG.
But my old wooden trawler was also ballasted, and so are all plastic D boats, afaik.

Ref. top heavy, I think your impression is mostly driven by the hull freeboard, which for any given length in a N'havn or similar boat is higher than in any P boat, for good & obvious reasons.
But overall, the superstructure of the N57 in that pic is one of the lower among Nordhavns, also back in her days. The 62 was towering her, in comparison.
Not to mention the models that followed, after they realized that interior space is a big selling point, even if at the expense of an easier accessibility, as I mentioned previously.
Have a look at the 60' below, whose hull is just marginally larger than the 57 in the photo of the article.
Doesn't the pic make you wonder how she can stay upright?
But of course she does, otherwise also any modern cruise ship would capsize PDQ!

 

[EricJ]

Very interesting thread. Well, I would say that, wouldn't I?

There are five 41s in build at the moment, and they will be followed by another five, and Nordhavn owners tend to be quite fond of sharing their experiences with the world ? so I expect there will be plenty of information to come.

thanks, very interesting to have the insights from an owner.
Since the 41 has a wet exhaust and thus not an exhaust pipe that has to tower high above the boat, the flybridge becomes kind of optional. With a dry exhaust they would have had some space to fill I think.
does your 40 have a dry exhaust?

when you mentioned the other boats you looked at, I assume you meant Linssen and not Lurssen. They are somewhat far apart size wise ?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Ref. top heavy, I think your impression is mostly driven by the hull freeboard, which for any given length in a N'havn or similar boat is higher than in any P boat, for good & obvious reasons.

Many years ago I went to the Dusseldorf boat show and the Nordhavn stand happened to be next door to the Fleming stand and it was very instructive to compare the hull of a Nordhavn against the hull of a Fleming, which is acknowledged to be one of most seaworthy SD boats out there. The Nordhavn hull was much deeper and fuller than the Fleming hull. In addition, as mentioned above, Nordhavn stick a load of ballast at the bottom of their hulls. Its only when you see a Nordhavn hull close up that you can appreciate how Nordhavns can be stable enough to cross oceans despite what appears to be a very high superstructure on many of them

Not many boats can roll to 69 degrees and still stay upright

Nordhavn Rolls 69 Degrees Crossing Australian Bar; Sustains Little Damage

 

[Zing]

I would of thought that there would not have been much cost difference in the 75hp marine diesel engine market. Volvo or Yanmar is the obvious choice, but maybe a Nanni would be another option.

I know how important worldwide warranty is to boat builders, it just surprised me that Nordhavn have picked Beta Marine.

Beta use mainly Kubota engines, the same engines used in most generators and a zillion tractors and construction plant machines. Beta just do the marinising bit, i.e. the heat exchanger, pump, the water injector and the red paint. With it you are essentially getting a solid, cheaply repaired, simple, well proven, reliable engine. A Kubota is a good choice.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Beta just do the marinising bit, i.e. the heat exchanger, pump, the water injector

All the things that usually go wrong with a marine engine then The fact is that the Kubota may be the best engine in the world but if there isnt a Beta service dealer in many cruising areas, then getting warranty service and spares is going to be that much more difficult which makes it a strange choice for a boat that is built to cruise extensively