New merchant sailing ships
- Thread starter webcraft
- Start date
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of a return to commercial sail power but the project strikes me as naive.
Why replicate a design that is completely out of date? Four masts and square rig will be massively labour intensive and therefore commercially uncompetitive; windward performance will be dire, ability to deliver consignements on time will suffer, so again commercially it is very weak.
Such a complex rig will make cargo loading and unloading an absolute nightmare, again reducing any chance of commercial success in competition with highly streamlined and standardised cargo handling.
And finally, they need to learn proper use of apostrophes, IMHO...
A successful sailing cargo craft should be designed from the outset to by compatible with existing ports and cargo handling, and to be crewed by a reasonable number of people, preferably without needing rare/unusal (expensive) skills. This could mean, for example, starting off with a fairly standard ship but adding leeboards and a rig which can be stepped once at sea, then stowed again before arrival.
Why replicate a design that is completely out of date? Four masts and square rig will be massively labour intensive and therefore commercially uncompetitive; windward performance will be dire, ability to deliver consignements on time will suffer, so again commercially it is very weak.
Such a complex rig will make cargo loading and unloading an absolute nightmare, again reducing any chance of commercial success in competition with highly streamlined and standardised cargo handling.
And finally, they need to learn proper use of apostrophes, IMHO...
A successful sailing cargo craft should be designed from the outset to by compatible with existing ports and cargo handling, and to be crewed by a reasonable number of people, preferably without needing rare/unusal (expensive) skills. This could mean, for example, starting off with a fairly standard ship but adding leeboards and a rig which can be stepped once at sea, then stowed again before arrival.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
.
All agreed.
Using kites or parasails with existing ships has been tried, this seems like an interesting avenue to explore further.
- W
All agreed.
Using kites or parasails with existing ships has been tried, this seems like an interesting avenue to explore further.
- W
prv
Well-Known Member
That site is so unbelievably naive and impractical it actually makes me angry to read.
Pete
Pete
V1701
Well-Known Member
It's a con, it's very badly written, probably by some sixth formers, or a sixth former, to try and rake in a bit of cash, site created at mrsite.com, do me a favour!
V1701
Well-Known Member
Second thoughts, it's not you being naughty Webcraft, is it? You wouldn't, or would you? 
TamarMike
Well-Known Member
IIRC the Walker Wingsail was originally designed for use on merchant ships but with dropping oil prices at the time it was re-launched aimed at the leisure market - where it failed totally. Perhaps in the next few years we may see something similar reappearing on commercial vessels?
TamarMike
Well-Known Member
Just looked on Google and found 3 or 4 vessels have tried Wingsails, until oil becomes more expensive the cost of maintenance and restricted times when there is enough wind doesn't seem to make it commerciably viable.
Ariadne
Well-Known Member
Why would it want to go to windward going to and from N America to Europe? Traditionally, and in practice you only sail with the prevailing winds hence 'TRADE WINDS'.
Only racing people and those who think they need to, go to windward, the rest of us just wait another day or two for the wind to change direction. I haven't sailed to windward for the last 3 years.
Only racing people and those who think they need to, go to windward, the rest of us just wait another day or two for the wind to change direction. I haven't sailed to windward for the last 3 years.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
One rig option which springs would mind would be a twin-mast lugsail. This was used by the last of the great sailing trawlers which were in competition with steam power. Windward performance isn't the best, but the sail area is large enough to give a lot of power off the wind; it also leaves an uncluttered deck area for working, and on a smaller scale the mast and spar can be stowed within the length of the boat.
A modern version would want hydraulics for raising and lowering the mast, and perhaps an in-boom reefing system.
A modern version would want hydraulics for raising and lowering the mast, and perhaps an in-boom reefing system.
KenMcCulloch
Well-Known Member
That was my first response too, but I remember reading about Moshulu; Eric Newby sailed her as a young man in 1939 and wrote 'The Last Grain Race' I don't have a copy to hand but mechanical winches and so on allowed her to be sailed by a much smaller crew, about 15 men I think, than one might assume. Perhaps not so completely bonkers.
However if their web authors can't fet the apostrophe right what other details will they fall down on, eh?
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Their lousy spelling and grammar aside, the web authors have provided a page to make a donation, but they don't say who they are or where they're based. Very fishy!
Babs
PS Why isn't there a 'fish' emoticon?
Wunja
Well-Known Member
This isn't the first re-invention of sail cargo.. from 2008
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/24/food.carbonemissions
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/24/food.carbonemissions
Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
planteater
Well-Known Member
I agree. Soft wingsails would seem a good choice to me. Being fully battened they are ideal for motor-sailing as they don't flog if you get things a bit wrong. With modern materials they could be lightweight and easy to stow. I suspect the whole system could be computer controlled and require no additional crew. With a little thought they could probably be retrofitted to existing container vessels.
Seagreen
Well-Known Member
Brownie points for trying, but I agree.
Exactly. The design has to start from what will work with and fit into the existing port structures and facilities. This will mean a rig with minimal staying, and capacity for adaption to various cargo handlig needs. Training, however, would become an easy issue to deal with.
I personally think something along the lines of the rig as used on the Maltese Falcon has possibilities. And as long as labour costs/crew numbers can be kept down with standardisation and adaption of port facilities where necessary, wind is a very viable option. It does depend really on how much funding will be directed at this to skew the economics in favour of wind as a power source. Any thoughts from anyoe on the econmics of the shipping trade? I believe that bulk transport by sea is one of the greenest methods anyway.
I just don't think this will work except as a Test vessel.
V1701
Well-Known Member
Exactly! Anonymous Web site asking for money is basically what it is. I don't know who you would report things like this to though. Because there are probably people daft or gullible enough to "donate"...
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
I suppose we should really give this group some credit for having such impressive (ok, wild, and totally out of touch with reality) dreams!
However they are simply following the same course that was taken by a certain gentleman who developed a wing sail - he had this dream, and he invited people to buy shares in his project - and many people (including a good friend of mine) flung large quantities of cash at him with gay abandon, convinced that his wing sails would revolutionise the whole world of commercial shipping.........
In contrast to the SeaBySail dreamers, have a look at this website - http://greenships.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 - this is an organisation who Do deserve some support (or at least encouragement) IMHO.
Remember the Atlantic Clipper? For a while she was called Guinness Clipper, as (I think) she had some sponsorship from Guinness to ship their brew from Eire to the Windies. A wonderful vessel, designed by David Thomas, so you know that she would sail well, while still being able to carry a respectable amount of cargo in a very efficient manner.
I dont know what happened in the end re their trade around the West Indies (I heard on the grape vine that she is trading in the Pacific somewhere now), but I suspect that they simply could not find the cargoes, same as all the other small inter island coasters who were trundling around the Eastern Caribbean then (with only a few still surviving now) - pretty much everything is shipped in containers now, even between the islands, unlike up until 25 - 30 years ago when many little ex North Sea coasters earned a good living carrying all sorts of cargoes between the islands.
The only cargoes they can find these days are usually bulk - building materials, bagged cement on pallets, fertiliser, steel coils etc - and the freight rates are so low that it is difficult to keep these ships going, even when they are being run on a shoe string, out of class and with no insurance - which does not encourage shippers to send cargoes with them in the first place..........
I really do like the Greenship proposal for a 1,000 dwt sailing cargo vessel with 12 passengers (see their plan for the Future).
My final year design project at university 25 years ago was for a very similar type of vessel trading under sail (bermudan schooner rig) in the Caribbean, but with 2,000 tonnes dwt capacity, rather than 1,000 dwt.
However even in the mid 80's, when there was huge interest in commercial sail, as fuel prices were expected to go through the roof, we calculated that the fuel savings from using the sails on my ship would just about pay for the wear and tear on the rig, and buying new sails when required.
Ironically, the real money spinner was the income that would have been generated (theoretically) from the 12 passengers all enjoying a cruise on a proper sailing cargo ship (instead of a motorised rectangular steel shoe box that floats).
Going back to the Greenship project, she is similar in some ways (eg overall length and type of rig) to the lovely schooner Windrose, designed by Gerard Dijkstra and built in Holland 9 years ago - here are a couple of links to her http://www.rnryachts.com/Windrose.html and http://www.windrose.nl/
However they are simply following the same course that was taken by a certain gentleman who developed a wing sail - he had this dream, and he invited people to buy shares in his project - and many people (including a good friend of mine) flung large quantities of cash at him with gay abandon, convinced that his wing sails would revolutionise the whole world of commercial shipping.........
In contrast to the SeaBySail dreamers, have a look at this website - http://greenships.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 - this is an organisation who Do deserve some support (or at least encouragement) IMHO.
Remember the Atlantic Clipper? For a while she was called Guinness Clipper, as (I think) she had some sponsorship from Guinness to ship their brew from Eire to the Windies. A wonderful vessel, designed by David Thomas, so you know that she would sail well, while still being able to carry a respectable amount of cargo in a very efficient manner.
I dont know what happened in the end re their trade around the West Indies (I heard on the grape vine that she is trading in the Pacific somewhere now), but I suspect that they simply could not find the cargoes, same as all the other small inter island coasters who were trundling around the Eastern Caribbean then (with only a few still surviving now) - pretty much everything is shipped in containers now, even between the islands, unlike up until 25 - 30 years ago when many little ex North Sea coasters earned a good living carrying all sorts of cargoes between the islands.
The only cargoes they can find these days are usually bulk - building materials, bagged cement on pallets, fertiliser, steel coils etc - and the freight rates are so low that it is difficult to keep these ships going, even when they are being run on a shoe string, out of class and with no insurance - which does not encourage shippers to send cargoes with them in the first place..........
I really do like the Greenship proposal for a 1,000 dwt sailing cargo vessel with 12 passengers (see their plan for the Future).
My final year design project at university 25 years ago was for a very similar type of vessel trading under sail (bermudan schooner rig) in the Caribbean, but with 2,000 tonnes dwt capacity, rather than 1,000 dwt.
However even in the mid 80's, when there was huge interest in commercial sail, as fuel prices were expected to go through the roof, we calculated that the fuel savings from using the sails on my ship would just about pay for the wear and tear on the rig, and buying new sails when required.
Ironically, the real money spinner was the income that would have been generated (theoretically) from the 12 passengers all enjoying a cruise on a proper sailing cargo ship (instead of a motorised rectangular steel shoe box that floats).
Going back to the Greenship project, she is similar in some ways (eg overall length and type of rig) to the lovely schooner Windrose, designed by Gerard Dijkstra and built in Holland 9 years ago - here are a couple of links to her http://www.rnryachts.com/Windrose.html and http://www.windrose.nl/
Last edited:
nonitoo
Well-Known Member
Site now says -
Site under construction. Please check back soon!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!
Tom
Site under construction. Please check back soon!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!
Tom
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
First of all, the main problem here is that about 90% or more of freight goes in Containers. And 90% of what's left is Oil! OK, I'm guessing a bit - but not a lot. So, how does a ship like this fit into that paradigm? If it doesn't carry containers, it has a tiny, tiny market, and that market is of low-value cargoes that will attract extremely low freight rates.
Second, Square rigs are simply inappropriate for reasons others have spoken about. The fully developed square rig was a response to subdividing a rig to compensate for weak materials (wood and hemp) and for operation solely by man-power. With wire rigging, steel masts and powered winches, it became obsolete, and was replaced by fore and aft rigs as exemplified by ships like the "Preussen".
While I am sure that a wind-powered merchant ship is possible and could be profitable, I am equally certain that it won't look anything like a traditional square-rigger. I imagine something like the Preussen, with a simple rig made of modern materials, with power driven sheets and furling gear. Above all, I imagine something that has spacing between the masts to allow containers to be carried. It may well have to be a catamaran design, to give stability with a high load, and it will have to have engines to allow it to manoeuvre in today's ports, and to provide power to operate the rig.
I am deeply concerned about the environment, but initiatives like this worry me. Going "Green" doesn't mean harking back to a golden age that never existed, it means looking with a clear eye at the economic factors involved in a project, and seeing how to make environmentally friendly options more cost-effective than the existing solutions.
Second, Square rigs are simply inappropriate for reasons others have spoken about. The fully developed square rig was a response to subdividing a rig to compensate for weak materials (wood and hemp) and for operation solely by man-power. With wire rigging, steel masts and powered winches, it became obsolete, and was replaced by fore and aft rigs as exemplified by ships like the "Preussen".
While I am sure that a wind-powered merchant ship is possible and could be profitable, I am equally certain that it won't look anything like a traditional square-rigger. I imagine something like the Preussen, with a simple rig made of modern materials, with power driven sheets and furling gear. Above all, I imagine something that has spacing between the masts to allow containers to be carried. It may well have to be a catamaran design, to give stability with a high load, and it will have to have engines to allow it to manoeuvre in today's ports, and to provide power to operate the rig.
I am deeply concerned about the environment, but initiatives like this worry me. Going "Green" doesn't mean harking back to a golden age that never existed, it means looking with a clear eye at the economic factors involved in a project, and seeing how to make environmentally friendly options more cost-effective than the existing solutions.
