New build Princess F55 flybridge

[jfm]

My squadron 58 has chilled water cooled by two engine rooms chillers which work independently. Mine is 2004.

I looked at a Manhattan 50 and that had The stand alone units ( noisy all in one things )

I would have thought that anything more than 50 ft would have had central chillers.

That's the standard spec on Sq58. As you say, it should be standard spec on 50 ft+, imho.
The stand alone "selfie" units that s/seeker fit to Man50 are nasty things. Very noisy. Fairline fitted them to the 2012-onwards Targa 50s - a (minor) work of the devil.

 

[MapisM]

My squadron 58 has chilled water cooled by two engine rooms chillers which work independently.

J, no idea if FL had different airco options, but I'm pretty sure that both the two Sq58 I evaluated had a single chiller with two compressors.
Nothing wrong with that, it's what I've got also on my boat, but in fairness the compressors are not 100% independent/redundant.
I mean, yes, you can chose to just use one, but in the event of a failure somewhere else in the chiller (raw water pump, coolant circulation pump, evaporator), you're out of luck.
That said, to my knowledge such type of failure is pretty rare.

Do builders fit a different type of system to this on 55 foot boats? I understand JFM’s new superyacht might but 55 footers?

As jfm already said, yes, absolutely.
The chiller+air handlers Condaria system I've got on my 2004 boat was so widely used back in those days that I would struggle to think of one boat among all the ones I've seen that did NOT use it.
To name but a few: Ferretti 53/55/57/165/175/185, Azimut 52/55/58, Aicon 55, DP 52/55/56/59, VZ 16/18, DC 16, Mochi 56, Riva 54, Technema 55/60, Uniesse 55/58...
...and I'm sure I'm forgetting others!

 

[starfire]

The Squadron 58 system is by far the better way to go, but, access to the chillers is interesting if there is a problem. I concur that a lot of the time, the aircon can run with one chiller.

The princess V70 has the compressors hung over the engines, pain in the backside. The condensate drains drop into a shower box under the front of the stb engine, impossible to get to without removing the stb intake strainer & pipework. ISTR the saloon unit drains into this as well, fun trying to unblock the pipework.

Under the front of the port engine is the aircon seacock & pump, again impossible to access.

As far as the gyro , (as fitted to a Sunseeker Manhatten) you can't start it up on a 32A shorepower, too much of a start up surge. It may have improved on newer ones.
Makes a big difference at anchor or under way.

Not too impressed by the pre delivery inspection, LOTS of post delivery snagging required.

 

[jrudge]

The Squadron 58 system is by far the better way to go, but, access to the chillers is interesting if there is a problem. I concur that a lot of the time, the aircon can run with one chiller.

The princess V70 has the compressors hung over the engines, pain in the backside. The condensate drains drop into a shower box under the front of the stb engine, impossible to get to without removing the stb intake strainer & pipework. ISTR the saloon unit drains into this as well, fun trying to unblock the pipework.

Under the front of the port engine is the aircon seacock & pump, again impossible to access.

As far as the gyro , (as fitted to a Sunseeker Manhatten) you can't start it up on a 32A shorepower, too much of a start up surge. It may have improved on newer ones.
Makes a big difference at anchor or under way.

Not too impressed by the pre delivery inspection, LOTS of post delivery snagging required.

my gyro is about 12a at startup and 4 or so when running ( sea state dependant)

 

[henryf]

It doesn't. It has compressors in the engine room feeding refrigerant to remote evaporator units (not air handlers) in the cabins

Yes absolutely they do. Many fit the system you'd choose if you had a free choice, which is to have the compressor and evaporator in a single unit in the engine room and then pump chilled water to dumb air handlers in the cabins. The refrigerant quantity is therefore much less in terms of kgs and is all in the engine room or plant room, never in the living accommodation. Also if you have multiple compressors (usually 2 if you're up to 80 feet, and three if you're 100 feet) then you have back up/redundancy in that any compressor can chill any/all cabins, so no guests even notice if a compressor fails

Thanks for that And sorry for the incorrect terminology. Every day’s a school day.

The P50 is the first boat I’ve had with A/C some I’m still green behind the gills.

If the chilled / heated water system is so good why don’t Princess fit it as standard? They are well versed in choosing best practice so I’m struggling to understand why they’d settle for second best.

Put the other way what’s the downside of a chilled / heated water system? It’s already been said that if the chiller / heater unit fails you lose everything as opposed to just one zone.

I hear the discussion surrounding refrigerant gas quantity, With the cars we have a machine that recovers gas prior to opening up the loop. You obviously lose everything when a leak occurs, usually impact damage or corrosion.

 

[jfm]

Thanks for that And sorry for the incorrect terminology. Every day’s a school day.

The P50 is the first boat I’ve had with A/C some I’m still green behind the gills.

If the chilled / heated water system is so good why don’t Princess fit it as standard? They are well versed in choosing best practice so I’m struggling to understand why they’d settle for second best.

Put the other way what’s the downside of a chilled / heated water system? It’s already been said that if the chiller / heater unit fails you lose everything as opposed to just one zone.

I hear the discussion surrounding refrigerant gas quantity, With the cars we have a machine that recovers gas prior to opening up the loop. You obviously lose everything when a leak occurs, usually impact damage or corrosion.

They will have their reasons - possibly cost or e/room space limitations- for doing what they have done. You've go to be realistic though - they are not focussed on best practice. As one example the hoses in your black tank system are cheap PVC junk and will smell a bit. The stuff they should use is 2x the price, ballpark £150, yet they prefer to save £150.

There's almost no downside to chilled water compared with split compressor/evaporator. Chilled water compressors are at this size fitted in pairs anyway. They do consume more e/room space though - that can be a downside.

If you get a refrigerant leak in a car it blows away under the bonnet, but in a boat you could have some quite unpleasant gas in your cabin. The fact that you have long refrigerant pipe runs in a boat flexing and bashing on waves doesn't fill me with confidence. To be honest this is the first case I've seen (maybe I just didn't look...) of a split gas system in a boat. No worries - their pipework install quality is generally very good as you know.

 

[jfm]

J, no idea if FL had different airco options, but I'm pretty sure that both the two Sq58 I evaluated had a single chiller with two compressors.
Nothing wrong with that, it's what I've got also on my boat, but in fairness the compressors are not 100% independent/redundant.
I mean, yes, you can chose to just use one, but in the event of a failure somewhere else in the chiller (raw water pump, coolant circulation pump, evaporator), you're out of luck.
That said, to my knowledge such type of failure is pretty rare.

The standard Sq58 factory build was a single chiller unit, but it was two compressors and 2 evaporators mounted in a single rack. Total redundancy cover.

Regarding your 3rd sentence, I always carry a spare for each of the two pumps, and there is no evaporator anywhere other than within the double chiller unit where there is redundancy

 

[EricJ]

I am late to the party, but what a great read. Thank you Henryf that you took the time to make this thread. And congrats on this beautiful boat.
In the Jack Haines video he mentions that with passarelle and Seakeeper the load of the Hi-low bathing platform is limited to 125 kg. I wonder how Med boaters will deal with this. It would limit it to a rather light tender. Does Princess also offer a passerelle/crane option for a fixed platform?
Do you have real teak in the cockpit/platform or synthetic? I think it makes a lot of sense to keep the sidedecks GRP, but that has been discussed here more than once
Picture in post 63 nicely shows why the galley floor needs to be a few inches lower to accommodate a full height fridge.
Great boat and thanks again!

 

[jrudge]

Thanks for that And sorry for the incorrect terminology. Every day’s a school day.

The P50 is the first boat I’ve had with A/C some I’m still green behind the gills.

If the chilled / heated water system is so good why don’t Princess fit it as standard? They are well versed in choosing best practice so I’m struggling to understand why they’d settle for second best.

Put the other way what’s the downside of a chilled / heated water system? It’s already been said that if the chiller / heater unit fails you lose everything as opposed to just one zone.

I hear the discussion surrounding refrigerant gas quantity, With the cars we have a machine that recovers gas prior to opening up the loop. You obviously lose everything when a leak occurs, usually impact damage or corrosion.

when I saw it ( I do most of my own fixing and know him well so he asked me to have a look) I was surprised.

being cynical ( my father was in the motor trade as you are ) and instilled in me that the manufactures do things only for their own benefit - usually that it costs less !

that said I am not sure that 4/5 compressors in the engine room would be cheaper than a dual chiller water cooled unit.

would fitting involve less labour ? Again don’t know. The chilled water is just a water loop round the boat.

why I like about chilled water is it is simple and there are 2 chillers so in the main thing that is going to kill the aircon is failure of either the circulation pump or the raw water pump. The v55 has a single raw water pump also so that leaves the circulation pump. Fortunately they are reliable.

in practice I am sure it will be fine - but he did have a load of grief and I have seen a rack of broken ones in the dealers garage.

Anyway Done to death I suspect !

time to burn some diesel !

 

[henryf]

Thanks for the comments on the A/C. I’ve been happy with the set up on the P50, fingers crossed it works well on the F55.

Food for thought in the future.

 

[Portofino]

Just to hopefully round up ACon and the variations .
My 42000 btu water chiller is under a bunk .Away from the ER heat .It’s silent as is and with the mattress down you just don’t hear it .
The latest same size box does 50 K btu .
Calpedi water pumps , one for the seawater through the unit and the other to shift the cold water to the silent air handlers are in the ER .The ER is soundproof.The whole thing is silent we leave it on all night .


A twin birth cabin .

just see the top edge in white .^


The relevance is simply you don’t necessarily need to mount the water chiller in the ER .Wether that’s significant in terms of efficiency ie it’s cool and basically cools its own space as the cabin air handler is under the other bunk , I don’t know .

Also more significant was this was all retro fitted with ease by a guy who’s employed by Sunseeker France who junks OEM Marin Air stuff on 1 ye old boats . Charter captains ask for something else .Big S /Skrs not smaller the selfies btw .
Downer is / was as said in my previous post it’s expensive compared to OEM stuff they use . So if you ever get a chance to spec a con and the factory will fit it ……do so . Go away and Google the other benefits .Some I mentioned in an earlier post .
Previous to this bit like H one previous boat with ACon but with marin air self contained units in each cabin .You just couldn’t sleep due to the racket .Yes I did try and silence them placing corks twixt pipe to lower resonating .

So it’s not unheard of to rip out OEM and retro fit alternative Air con ……..from reputable manufacturers.

 

[henryf]

I am late to the party, but what a great read. Thank you Henryf that you took the time to make this thread. And congrats on this beautiful boat.
In the Jack Haines video he mentions that with passarelle and Seakeeper the load of the Hi-low bathing platform is limited to 125 kg. I wonder how Med boaters will deal with this. It would limit it to a rather light tender. Does Princess also offer a passerelle/crane option for a fixed platform?
Do you have real teak in the cockpit/platform or synthetic? I think it makes a lot of sense to keep the sidedecks GRP, but that has been discussed here more than once
Picture in post 63 nicely shows why the galley floor needs to be a few inches lower to accommodate a full height fridge.
Great boat and thanks again!

The Hi-Lo platform is a cost option and I like fixed bathing platforms. I find them easy to crane a dinghy onto. When I asked I was told they’d never built an F55 without a Hi-Lo platform so I didn’t want to be the first. I can see that swimming is vastly improved but in the UK I don’t swim in the sea. I may not be a typical owner, if I was in Asia I’d do lots of swimming.

The teak is real. We may fit fake teak on the flybridge.

In terms of weight yes, their is a suggested max weight when a gyro is fitted. I’m planning something slightly radical for my tender meaning weight isn’t an issue, you certainly couldn’t fit a Williams and remain within Princess recommendations. I suggest people do. The swim platform will take it, it’s aft end weight thats the issue.

The water tank is fitted further forward on the F55 compared to our P50. I think there is also more displacement volume on the aft end of an F55 compared to a P50.

You are absolutely correct in spotting that the galley floor drop allows the full sized fridge freezer to go under the flybridge stairs. For us that full height fridge freezer in the galley was essential. It prevented us buying the P52 or P56.

 

[MapisM]

The standard Sq58 factory build was a single chiller unit, but it was two compressors and 2 evaporators mounted in a single rack. Total redundancy cover.

Regarding your 3rd sentence, I always carry a spare for each of the two pumps, and there is no evaporator anywhere other than within the double chiller unit where there is redundancy

Ok, I didn't notice that the two compressor do not share the same evaporator, but I take your word for it, of course.
Anyway, other than that, you're pretty much confirming what I said ref. two compressors NOT meaning two totally independent systems.
Carrying spare parts is praiseworthy, but doesn't count as full redundancy!

 

[MapisM]

If the chilled / heated water system is so good why don’t Princess fit it as standard?

I was wondering exactly the same.
I'm with jrudge in struggling to think that they can save a meaningful amount of money (if any at all!) by going the multiple chillers route.
In fact, I can't think of a better way to get a good answer to your question than asking Princess!
I for one would be interested to hear their explanations, if you'll get any.

 

[Portofino]

Odd fitting seperate gas the split method .That’s more akin to property bolt on units you see hanging on buildings.
There will an explanation over chilled water .

 

[Hurricane]

Split A/C vs water chilled systems.
JW is fitted with 5 Split DX Air conditioning systems.
I disagree with JFM's comment about them being "the work of the devil"
As I said above, there are pros and cons.
JW is now 14 years old (15 years since being in the factory).
I have one A/C unit that is partially faulty but, of course, it doesn't affect the performance of the others.
I appreciate all the points about the duplication within a chilled water system (two compressors etc).
But a friend (with a Fairline) has such a system and has had problems with his.
Yes, he can run just one compressor but he has had situations where he has been completely without A/C.
In my case, that hasn't happened.
So, I don't agree that they are "the work of the devil".

@MapisM I suspect one of the reasons that Princess use split systems is that it is easier to fit (say) 5 separate systems into a space whereas a dedicated chilled water system is a specific size - and they aren't small. My friend's one takes up a large space in his lazerette.

On balance, I would prefer a chilled water system but there really isn't much to argue about either methods.

Incidentally, I've been teaching myself about refrigeration maintenance.
I've bought all the gear and gradually working through experiences - fridges etc
BTW does anyone know where I can get some R-417A refrigerant?

 

[jfm]

BTW does anyone know where I can get some R-417A refrigerant?

Superheat or John in St Carles will know, but I think the sale of it is regulated and you can't buy it retail. It's not cheap either. Hope you can get what you need.

 

[henryf]

We buy refrigerant for the car workshop. Ours comes from Euro Car Parts in the UK and as JFM says be sitting down when you get the bill. We have quite a large machine that handles emptying / checking / filling of A/C systems and it's all a closed loop. You can obviously get a mobile set up in component parts suitable for use on a boat.

One of our technicians is refrigerant gas certified allowing us to purchase.

I am bound to say it's one of those things where I'd have thought it more cost effective to have someone come to you and do everything. The nature of the sealed system means you aren't constantly going to be de-gassing and re-gassing.

In our world it's only really R134a (expensive) and R1234yf (hideously expensive) gas that's used. You need separate equipment for each gas.

 

[henryf]

Incidentally the irony of all this discussion about air conditioning isn't lost on me as we negotiate freezing high winds....

 

[Hurricane]

We buy refrigerant for the car workshop. Ours comes from Euro Car Parts in the UK and as JFM says be sitting down when you get the bill. We have quite a large machine that handles emptying / checking / filling of A/C systems and it's all a closed loop. You can obviously get a mobile set up in component parts suitable for use on a boat.

One of our technicians is refrigerant gas certified allowing us to purchase.

I am bound to say it's one of those things where I'd have thought it more cost effective to have someone come to you and do everything. The nature of the sealed system means you aren't constantly going to be de-gassing and re-gassing.

In our world it's only really R134a (expensive) and R1234yf (hideously expensive) gas that's used. You need separate equipment for each gas.

Actually, Henry, R134A is quite cheap - you can even get it from Halfords.
About 60 quid for 900g
Most fridges and most car A/C seem to use R134A

@jfm As you say, R-417A is hideously expensive circa £900 for 10Kg (if you can get it).
On the other hand R-407C (also used in these marine systems) is less than half the price and readily available.
I am tempted to vac out one of my systems and use it instead.
One issue is the compatibility of the oils used in the compressors.
And, guess what - Dometic don't publish the oil type that they use - there IS space for the oil type on the spec plates but they haven't filled it in.
Also Dometic won't answer any emails - rubbish after sales support.
I'm already talking to John but if @superheat6k knows anything, I would be very grateful.