New build Princess F55 flybridge
- Thread starter henryf
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henryf
Well-known member
In crude terms I think you’re looking at a total build time of around 6 months. There’s maybe 6 boats in the assembly shed and maybe 3 / 4 in the hull moulding shed. Then there‘a a boat or two floating around in the process of testing / sea trials. All very unscientific but it gives you an idea.
I think Princess look to have one or two price increases every year. They have definitely been battling rising costs but you expect increases regardless. If you snooze you lose. Where Princess are very fair - in stark contrast to Porsche, is that your price is locked in at order. Any revisions or additions may be charged at prevailing prices so get your spec tided down early. I think the gyro stabilisation might have gone up £10k since we ordered as an example.
lead time for the F55 is roughly 18 months as far as I know. There have been a couple of opportunities through cancelled orders possibly in the Chinese market which got snapped up instantly. The boat just behind ours is one such example. There are a couple of distinguishing features but someone was able to jump the queue. Now China is waking up again after their draconian lock down I suspect we might see a revival in orders from people glad to still be alive and mindful of their own mortality. If that does happen orders will firm up further still.
ours is one of the first of the newer design F55s. They have hit the water, a few styling revisions the most noticeable of which is a lack of horizontal mullion in the middle of the saloon window.
MapisM
Well-known member
Actually I was only trying to put things in perspective.
Your reply to rafiki came across (to my ears, anyway!) as if he were talking of a hoi polloi boat...
henryf
Well-known member
Hi there, not sure what you mean by Hoi polloi.Actually I was only trying to put things in perspective.
Your reply to rafiki came across (to my ears, anyway!) as if he were talking of a hoi polloi boat...
Paul & I go back quite a long way and his love of AZ is a constant source of playful banter. He’s dragged me round quite a few of them over the years.
I always worry someone will recognise me getting off one at a show one day. ??
benjenbav
Well-known member
Interesting comment about locking price in at the point of order. Can you also drop out of the contract at will without penalty up until delivery as I think you can with Porsche?
henryf
Well-known member
I would suggest probably not. Porsche have to let you pull out because they can’t give you a price. You can’t make someone buy something without telling them how much it costs.
A more legally able person like JFM will come along to confirm but my understanding is that there’s a process to follow if you want to pull out of the build.
Princess sales would try to sell on the slot to mitigate losses and I suspect I’d be liable for any shortfall which would be deducted from any part payment being returned.
At the moment there’s a strange scenario where I could sell my build slot for a profit as it speeds up delivery for someone and is at 2021 prices.
There’s quite a long lead time for Princess to see the benefit of any price increases. They're almost running 2 years in arrears. Boat building is definitely the long game not a quick profit.
benjenbav
Well-known member
Different contracts. For example, it’s blimmin difficult to get a fixed price contract on the construction of a building. And defence contracts… but let’s not go there.
I would expect that Princess would factor in both anticipated increases in materials costs plus a contingency in their pricing owing to the length of the build process.
But more generally I would have thought boat building was not a good way to make any sort of profit.
I would expect that Princess would factor in both anticipated increases in materials costs plus a contingency in their pricing owing to the length of the build process.
But more generally I would have thought boat building was not a good way to make any sort of profit.
henryf
Well-known member
You’re probably not wrong. Ultimately if Princess the factory can line all their supply ducks up to make best use of their production improvements over the years then I’m confident the can turn a profit. But it’s a huge mouth to feed with lots of people and some very big sheds.
benjenbav
Well-known member
Yup. The economics of manufacturing are a long way from what this is all supposed to be about, anyway. Somebody else’s problem. My apologies for the drift.
More importantly, do you have any renders you can share on here of the internals that you’ve actually chosen? I think I’d also prefer the satin walnut cabinetry to the very light oak in the example in Jack Haines’ video, but each to their own.
And watching that video did confirm the point you made about entry to the crew cabin not being easy - especially for those of us (including me) who’ve achieved a middle-age-appropriate degree of bulk and flexibility.
henryf
Well-known member
Unfortunately no renderings. We’ve done everything in good old fashioned analogue touchy feely mode. A combination of boat shows, factory visits and sitting on a newly delivered boat in Swanwick with vast libraries of fabric samples.
Princess do much of the hard work for you but it’s been really handy having Alan’s guiding hand just to point out things we might have otherwise overlooked.
Apparently all my fabric choices were rubbish so I took my skill set elsewhere and more or less agreed with the girls…..
jfm
Well-known member
You have my sympathy Henry with all the fabric samples etc. Buying a new boat where you can choose everything is quite a treat, but the choosing game quickly becomes quite a big job.
I would think that F55 and others similar to it are very profitable for Princess. It's a highly desirable fresh design in its segment and is quite standardised to build. Flybridge design looks excellent (you can have a very decent lunch party there) so will suit the med market. Going by Jack Haines' video, the list price of the test boat was £1.483m so the real price was maybe £1.35m, which means that even after dealer margin there must be plenty of fully loaded margin, especially when they build >100 hulls. (The reason Princess the company isn't profitable is imho it's ill-judged move 10 years ago into much bigger boats, where their brand name and sales behaviours imho don't work, their tooling up (in furniture/cabinetry especially) isn't right, and their low build numbers for each hull plus warranty costs kill them financially).
On pricing, I too have been very surprised at how far in advance builders fix their prices. I fixed my price in July 2022 for a March 2024 delivery so the builder might be on quite some risk for material and labour costs. They have fixed their own costs to some extent - I know my engines were ordered by them very quickly after I signed the build contract. i also paid an uplift for 2024 delivery over the 2023 price list, but not much, so they have built in a fixed amount of cost inflation and if that's enough then all ok for them.
The main issue imho is to get comfortable about whether one or both of builder/dealer will go bust before delivery, and what happens then. Nothing is risk free here but it can be managed. Avoiding this risk is the big advantage of buying a stock boat if you can find one.
I would think that F55 and others similar to it are very profitable for Princess. It's a highly desirable fresh design in its segment and is quite standardised to build. Flybridge design looks excellent (you can have a very decent lunch party there) so will suit the med market. Going by Jack Haines' video, the list price of the test boat was £1.483m so the real price was maybe £1.35m, which means that even after dealer margin there must be plenty of fully loaded margin, especially when they build >100 hulls. (The reason Princess the company isn't profitable is imho it's ill-judged move 10 years ago into much bigger boats, where their brand name and sales behaviours imho don't work, their tooling up (in furniture/cabinetry especially) isn't right, and their low build numbers for each hull plus warranty costs kill them financially).
On pricing, I too have been very surprised at how far in advance builders fix their prices. I fixed my price in July 2022 for a March 2024 delivery so the builder might be on quite some risk for material and labour costs. They have fixed their own costs to some extent - I know my engines were ordered by them very quickly after I signed the build contract. i also paid an uplift for 2024 delivery over the 2023 price list, but not much, so they have built in a fixed amount of cost inflation and if that's enough then all ok for them.
The main issue imho is to get comfortable about whether one or both of builder/dealer will go bust before delivery, and what happens then. Nothing is risk free here but it can be managed. Avoiding this risk is the big advantage of buying a stock boat if you can find one.
henryf
Well-known member
I initially worried a bit about solvency of the builder / dealer not helped by some comments and schoolyard economics on here. I’m not an accountant but Princess the builder seems to have around £60m in hard assets irrespective of any good will or acquired value.
Princess Sales / Argo are working on a margin so providing they can sell boats which they seem to be doing then they should stay in business.
I don’t profess to know how to manufacture something as complex as a boat commercially - although I did build a 70’ narrow boat in my youth. I can go round a boat show and say what I like and don’t like.
As you say Princess is great for people who don’t want to retain the services of a naval architect or marine engineer to represent them during construction. I find Princess make pretty good choices in terms of third party suppliers. If their chosen fixture isn’t your first it probably won’t be your last.
The F55 flybridge is indeed a very decent size with a good size table for everyone to enjoy their Greggs steak slices.
We’ve also got step through bow seating for the first time !
Princess Sales / Argo are working on a margin so providing they can sell boats which they seem to be doing then they should stay in business.
I don’t profess to know how to manufacture something as complex as a boat commercially - although I did build a 70’ narrow boat in my youth. I can go round a boat show and say what I like and don’t like.
As you say Princess is great for people who don’t want to retain the services of a naval architect or marine engineer to represent them during construction. I find Princess make pretty good choices in terms of third party suppliers. If their chosen fixture isn’t your first it probably won’t be your last.
The F55 flybridge is indeed a very decent size with a good size table for everyone to enjoy their Greggs steak slices.
We’ve also got step through bow seating for the first time !
henryf
Well-known member
We finally got a call from Alan Knight our build manager in August to say the Hull had been laid and another factory visit was in order - as well as another stage payment.
Arriving in Plymouth I was expecting to see a bare hull sitting in the moulding shed but instead saw our boat on station 1 of the production line. It was quite shocking to see something which had until then just been numbers on a bit of paper actually existing in the flesh. There also seemed to be a mountain of work ahead. As someone who likes to know the whole process before embarking on a construction project it was quite daunting. You just have to remind yourself that this isn’t Princess’ first rodeo they’ve built 134 previous F55’s prior to ours.
Essentially there are half a dozen stations on the F55 production line and the boats move along 1 station every couple of weeks. The build is fine tuned to make best use of time and all the component parts are made well in advance. This only works for production boats. As soon as you start to add customisation everything goes out the window. A change here has knock on effects elsewhere and all of a sudden your wiring loom no longer fits or the recess in the floor section compromises something underneath.
At this stage we had discussions surrounding component shortages. The 2 big issues were engines and generators. Whilst Princess had ordered and Volvo Penta / Onan promised the reality was that both companies had been coming up short.
Volvo Penta had been having issues surrounding foundry capacity and electronics supply, Onan just hadn’t delivered enough generators. In extreme cases Princess have had to fit engines out of sync later in the build process than they would ideally like and our Onan generator had been replaced with a Whisper Power unit featuring a kubota engine. I’m very familiar with the Kubota brand, our 3 tonne digger is fitted with one so fingers crossed it works OK. Once again because the change was instigated by Princess I’m happy that should problems arise I’m not left holding the baby.
Arriving in Plymouth I was expecting to see a bare hull sitting in the moulding shed but instead saw our boat on station 1 of the production line. It was quite shocking to see something which had until then just been numbers on a bit of paper actually existing in the flesh. There also seemed to be a mountain of work ahead. As someone who likes to know the whole process before embarking on a construction project it was quite daunting. You just have to remind yourself that this isn’t Princess’ first rodeo they’ve built 134 previous F55’s prior to ours.
Essentially there are half a dozen stations on the F55 production line and the boats move along 1 station every couple of weeks. The build is fine tuned to make best use of time and all the component parts are made well in advance. This only works for production boats. As soon as you start to add customisation everything goes out the window. A change here has knock on effects elsewhere and all of a sudden your wiring loom no longer fits or the recess in the floor section compromises something underneath.
At this stage we had discussions surrounding component shortages. The 2 big issues were engines and generators. Whilst Princess had ordered and Volvo Penta / Onan promised the reality was that both companies had been coming up short.
Volvo Penta had been having issues surrounding foundry capacity and electronics supply, Onan just hadn’t delivered enough generators. In extreme cases Princess have had to fit engines out of sync later in the build process than they would ideally like and our Onan generator had been replaced with a Whisper Power unit featuring a kubota engine. I’m very familiar with the Kubota brand, our 3 tonne digger is fitted with one so fingers crossed it works OK. Once again because the change was instigated by Princess I’m happy that should problems arise I’m not left holding the baby.
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henryf
Well-known member
Prior to ordering this boat we gave serious consideration to a Sirenna. We’d seen them at Düsseldorf as well as Cannes and there was a lot to be commended about their product. Ultimately I don’t think Sirenna have quite the finesse of Princess and some areas are a bit clunky in comparison to the Plymouth product but you get a lot of space in a stylish, conservative wrapper. The big question mark comes when you consider after sales support and snagging. There isn’t a UK dealer and at the time we pulled the trigger Sirenna were more worried about being able to supply existing dealers rather than open up new territories.
On this visit to Princess we also toured the component supply chain including furniture production, the metal shop and wiring loom production. Wow. By training I’m an industrial designer and industrial model maker so have some knowledge in this area. My first serious Girlfriend’s family used to own Stag furniture and I remember touring their factory before she rather unceremoniously dumped me at the start of a camping holiday in Frinton-on-Sea. Slightly awkward sharing a tent for a week afterwards I can tell you !
The component production facilities at Princess are astounding. Literally everything you can imagine is built from scratch then put away until being delivered just in time to the assembly line. Soft furnishings are made off site in Plymouth by another company Lang & Potter who are located just across the road from the F55 assembly site.
On this visit to Princess we also toured the component supply chain including furniture production, the metal shop and wiring loom production. Wow. By training I’m an industrial designer and industrial model maker so have some knowledge in this area. My first serious Girlfriend’s family used to own Stag furniture and I remember touring their factory before she rather unceremoniously dumped me at the start of a camping holiday in Frinton-on-Sea. Slightly awkward sharing a tent for a week afterwards I can tell you !
The component production facilities at Princess are astounding. Literally everything you can imagine is built from scratch then put away until being delivered just in time to the assembly line. Soft furnishings are made off site in Plymouth by another company Lang & Potter who are located just across the road from the F55 assembly site.
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jfm
Well-known member
Henry I liked the flybridge Garmin screens set perfectly flat/glassbridgy in the dashboard, in Jack's video. Also possible with Raymarine, of course. Will you be having that? Is it standard spec? Are you sticking with Raymarine?
rafiki_
Well-known member
Henry, are you saving the tender for another build thread?
jfm
Well-known member
Henry the Onan has a Kuboto engine too. Excellent machines
rafiki_
Well-known member
While there are benefits in having the manufacturing elements in-house, there are downsides too. Including costs. Buying in those systems that do not need to smell of Princess, will bring cost and quality savings. Princess will not be at the forefront of harness design and manufacture for example? I ran a review of the production processes of one of Prinny’s competitors, and my colleagues unearthed considerable cost and quality opportunities.
henryf
Well-known member
We've gone with a pair of 16 inch Garmin screens at the upper and lower helms as well as a small 4 inch screen for log / depth etc when not using the big screens - nice to have depth for instance.
48 inch open array radar.
henryf
Well-known member
Henry the Onan has a Kuboto engine too. Excellent machines
Ah ok, in my day they were Cummins engines I believe.