New Boat Purchase

[jonlaw]

My brother purchased a Beneteau 361 clipper at the Southampton boat show.
He took delivery about three weeks ago.
He paid a substantial amount of money for the commissioning.
He's now concerned about what actually should be commissioned.
He paid for ST60 instruments and a Furnero Plotter (sorry if its spelt wrong)
The ST60s have not been set up, ie the installation procedures have not been carried out.
The ST6000 autohelm is not sensing any output from the plotter.
I have adjusted the two Furnero outputs to 183 but the autohelm still says no data.
I suspect that the plotter may not be physically connected to the autohelm !
Reefing lines are fitted wrongly.
What do you think ?

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[Dominic]

Quite normal really.

If cars were built to the same standards as boats then the manufacturers would either be bust or in jail.

Quite typical for a boat to be sailed away after commissioning and find that the wiring for the nav lights had not been connected. For example.

Caveat Emptor - or don´t sail it away till you have checked everything. Absolutely everything and in great detail.

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[zefender]

I would simply phone up the dealer and arrange an apppointment to bring it back and have it done. Or perhaps they should come to you. I had a few niggly things with mine (a Bav) but they sent someone round to the berth to sort it.

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[tony_brighton]

Yep - you should expect a few things wrong - usually they will fix them with no hassles but work out a complete list and present it to them in one hit so they can plan appropriate resources. Dont expect a speedy response if you've sailed away to some far off destination.

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[tcm]

You must go into print as soon as possible. That is to say, rainging them when they're out is no good. You (or the owner, really) needs to draw up what will hereafter be called "The List" and fax it to them, refer to it, cross things off as they get fixed, reinstated them when the fix wasn't donw properly, and add new things as and when. You can be reasonable so if theres something you/he can easily, then do that/ But update the list and send it.

At end of warranty period, if the loist is still large, get the boat surveyed. Send the surveyor the list beforehand. Then you'll have a decent list. This will freak out the dealer, and they may get going.

Try if at all possible to enjoy the first year with things a bit busted/not working.

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[qsiv]

or as we saw in a race last year the tricolour and anchor lights crossed over. Fortunaetly we knew the owner and the boat and had been sailing in close company as dusk fell so we were able to call him up and warn him. His concern was that he had not long before done a night crossing of the Channel, and since then had spent 3 or 4 nights at sea...

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[Tiger Rag]

I would agree 100% with TCM but would just add that it is often a good ploy to be initially over fussy and bring up every minor fault on your original list. This gives you the chance later on to be seen to be being generous and reasonable i.e. "Well if you can just fix a,b, and c we can forget about f,g, and h"

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[tcm]

Re: f g h

agreed. Mind you, on our boat the effing Guest Heads were quite problematic!

Seriously, the longer the owner puts off the first creation of the List, the less he can put on it , imho. For example, if there were scratches all over some part of the interior woodwork on delivery, you could put that down if the list was created on day 1, and mebbe they could get a varnish spaying person round. But if the boat is 3 months old by the time you create the first list, then it's less easy to put on anything that could have been caused by you

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[vyv_cox]

Also for new other things

It's always worth bringing every defect of valuable purchases to the attention of the seller, to cover you if things go wrong in the future.

Many years ago I knew a man who had moved into a new, luxury bungalow. At the same time he bought a typewriter and was teaching himself touch typing. For the sake of the typing practice he drew up a list of every defect that he could find in his new bungalow, including some minor cracks in the plaster. This was sent to the house builder, who largely ignored it.

Five years later it became evident that his house had collapsing foundations, along with many in his neighbourhood. The rectification costs, for pumping concrete beneath the foundation slab, were high. On the basis of the note that he had written five years earlier his costs were zero, paid by NHBA. Others in the neighbourhood paid five-figure sums from their own bank accounts.

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[Martin_Billings]

A few comparisons and thoughts on standards in different sectors:

Commercial buildings. These are handed over when "practically complete" together with a snagging list of agreed faults which are to be remediated afterwards. Typically 5% of the construction company's fee is withheld as a term of the construction contract until the snagging has been sorted out. This seems to work.

Cars. As a consumer I don't know if my experience is typical but the last new car I can remember having anything significant wrong with it was a BL mini in 1973 which was sorted out on the day of purchase. (Engine wouldn't start so no serious issue of getting it out of the showroom and finding that there was a problem). Since then a few minor niggles all sorted out by dealers without interruption in use.

Computer software. Mostly seems to be rushed out to beat competition with serious inherent faults.

Boats. Sales personnel generally seem to be the main disincentive. At LIBS this year the Najad guy actually wandered off to get himself a cup of coffee when I was asking him about the boat on display. I mean, I know I'm not the most fascinating conversationalist but I was a punter with cash to burn so you might have thought I could have gotten someone at least to talk to me.

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[pandroid]

Funny, the Najad guy seemed pretty interested when I told him I had a Hallberg-Rassy!

As an aside, HR provide the boat in the water, with a full tank of diesel, and all the instruments set up and configured (although they disclaim them from being 'calibrated'). They actually take the boat out for a short sea trial, even if it is being road shipped. There is no additional commisioning fee. (Mind you, you might say that at the price.....)

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[doris]

Who is the agent?

Aren't Ancaster the Benateau agent, in which case a direct call to Ash Overton, or whoever is now in charge of new boat sales, with a written list following immediately and you will get solutions. Do not accect a 'commissioned boat' that is palpably not that. No-one would accept it with a car, fridge etc . Hearts ruling minds etc, know what I mean!

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[Birdseye]

Re: Who is the agent?

to be (arguably) more practical, minor issues like connecting gps and plotter can be dealt with yourself, and in the going you will learn something about the way the boat is organised that might be useful in the future.

its correct in principle to hand everything back to the dealer, but in the real world that takes time, costs effort and isnt worth it on minor electronic issues.

whenever i buy a new car, i always polish every part of it because that is a way of ensuring that i spot any exterior defects that there might be. recommend you concentrate on checking out the boat in that way, so you find the probs that do matter ie expensive / difficult to repair problems.

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[david_e]

It is completely unacceptable. The boat should have been handed over and then a demo sail undertaken.

If you were to spend £80-£90k in any other consumer sector you would be king, boating is not the same I'm afraid, attitudes are bloody poor and seem to be founded on the them and us, rich and poor foundation, which is completely A over T 'cause the minute you buy your boat most become poor!!

My beneteau cost close to £60k is only 6 months old, the wooden toe rails look very shabby with the varnish falling of and then flaking off when it is hosed down. Dealer's attitude so far is a) not sure whether it is teak or mahogany b) not showing any great interest in rectifying the problem. Fortunately I still hold some of their money so no doubt the interest level will rise when they want paying.



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[StugeronSteve]

Bought a new Benny 331 last year. Boat was generally well commissioned but hand over was rushed. 12 months on I have to say that the Ancasta aftersales team have been excellent, snags sorted promptly in home berth. Get them on to the more urgent jobs and cut them a little slack with the cosmetics etc (until the spring commissioning run has eased). Tell your bro to relax, enjoy the boat and leave the big stick in a locker until things get desperate.
p.s The electronics subby needed a bollicking over mine when I think about it.<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by StugeronSteve on 29/04/2003 21:56 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[billmacfarlane]

Q: "He's now concerned about what actually should be commissioned".
A: EVERY single thing on that boat should have been commissioned. Did your brother go out with the agent on a commissioning sail? If not he should have. You might find that the agent sub contracted the electronics to a specialist but he is still responsible and any problem should go through him. Is the boat now far from the agency ? If so get a local firm to quote to right all the things that are wrong , send the quote to the dealer and tell him that he's picking up the tab or if not what's he going to do and how quickly .

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[Chris_Stannard]

I do not agree that you can necessarily expect the instruments to have been fully calibrated, it depends on what was written in the contract. Usually the builder will check that the instruments have been installed and talk to each other, and will carry out checks such as making sure the autohelm turns the rudder in the expected direction. He will not have spent the several hours needed to swing the autohelm heading sensor, calibrate the wind direction sensor, and fine tune the rudder settings on the autohelm.
Unless your brother has paid for it I do not suppose the builder has swung the steering compass, indeed I know of two new boats where the transport clamps had not been removed from the NOrth/South and East/West adjusting magnets. This is a process which takes a couple of hours on its own.
As regards the Plotter the I expect the wiring is connected. Your brother has fallen down the electronic compatibility hole. Sensibly one buys all of the kit from one manufacturer. Raymarine works fine with all of its own kit, but does not necessarily produce all of the NMEA sentences. From what you say I suspect that the Furono plotter is expecting to get sentences which the Autohelm does not produce. Your brother may have more success if he gets the Raymarine Seatalk to NMEA conversion box, but before you do you should check the sentences that the Furuno requires as input, and what it outputs. You may weel find that you will never get the full functionallity from the Furuno/Raymarine combination. I know I have an ICS NAVTEX and according to which of the RAymarine NMEA outputs I connect it to the functions that work vary and this can all be traced back to the NMEA sentences those devices produce.
I often get the reefing lines wrong when I put them on at the start of the season, but it does not take long to puit them right, or was it more serious than that in which case you have a complaint.

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[Twister_Ken]

Good advice

Birdseye's advice is very sound. Problems with kit are generally easily sorted, either by a man with a multimeter and a soldering iron, or by swapping a unit out and replacing it under warranty. However, 'bodywork' problems are much more difficult and expensive to resolve. It's worth looking very carefully at every sq in of hull and deck, inside and out, for things like crazing, pinholes in the gel coat, weave patterns from the glass showing through, etc. This is actually much easier to do before the boat goes in the water,and it sounds like you're passed that stage, but even so, go around her in the dinghy looking very closely at everything between waterline and toerail.


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