New boat and buyer advice

[Graham376]

Looking at buying a boat in 2024? Get advice from the professionals to avoid the pitfalls - Practical Boat Owner

If the boat is subsequently imported into the UK, UK VAT will be liable.

If the boat has no CE mark, for example if the boat predates the implementation of the RCD in 1998, then a Post Construction Assessment will be needed by a UK body approved by UK regulations.

HPi Verification Services is the only UK-Approved Body for recreational craft.

 

[nevis768]

Looking at buying a boat in 2024? Get advice from the professionals to avoid the pitfalls - Practical Boat Owner

If the boat is subsequently imported into the UK, UK VAT will be liable.

If the boat has no CE mark, for example if the boat predates the implementation of the RCD in 1998, then a Post Construction Assessment will be needed by a UK body approved by UK regulations.

HPi Verification Services is the only UK-Approved Body for recreational craft.

More rubbish from a vested interest, where is the part of the RCD requiring private people to do this? Why have you linked an irrelevant article referring to 1998? Can you not find it either?
Here is the part of the Act which defines importer, it does not refer to private persons buying a secondhand boat,
An importer is a person or business based in the UK who places products on the GB market from a country outside the UK. This means that UK businesses which used to act as a ‘distributor’ before 1 January 2021 legally become an ‘importer’ if they place products from an EEA country on the GB market.

So which part of the Act are you referring to?

 

[Graham376]

Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

The obligations of private importers include:

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

 

[nevis768]

Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

The obligations of private importers include:

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

Any boat bought will have already had the relevant conformity assessment, ie CE marking.
It is always good to evidence the whole section of an Act you are referring to and section 1 of the bit you have taken out of context says,
This Guide is for businesses placing recreational craft on the market in Great Britain.

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
• The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.
• The private importer must ensure that the obligations for manufacturer covering technical documentation; declaration of conformity; relevant marking; instructions and safety information; provision of information and cooperation have been met or carried out.
• Where technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, the private importer must have this drawn up using the appropriate expertise.
• The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the approved body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product is marked on the craft.

9. Conformity assessment and marking – products placed on the GB market before 11pm 31 December 2024​

If you place an individual fully manufactured product on the EEA or the UK market (either in Northern Ireland or Great Britain) before 11pm 31 December 2024, you do not need to do anything new. These individual goods can continue to circulate on either market until they reach their end user and do not need to comply with the changes that take effect from 11pm 31 December 2024.

A fully manufactured good is ‘placed on the market’ when there is a written or verbal agreement (or offer of an agreement) to transfer ownership or possession or other rights in the product. This does not require physical transfer of the good.

You can usually provide proof of placing on the market on the basis of any relevant document ordinarily used in business transactions, including:

• contracts of sale concerning goods which have already been manufactured and meet the legal requirements
• invoices
• documents concerning the shipping of goods for distribution

The relevant economic operator (whether manufacturer, importer or distributor) bears the burden of proof for demonstrating that the good was placed on the EEA or UK market before 11pm 31 December 2024.

It appears that all of this is irrelevant anyway until 31/12/24

But when it is relevant all a private importer has to do is to ensure his boat complied with the relevant conformity procedure when it was first available to the UK market, eg CE marking. I don't think anybody is going to ask for a RCD compliance certificate for a 2012 boat when that didn't exist at the time of manufacture. So, it is the CE marking we are talking about. I think that would apply to all EU boats, so you don't have to do anything. Interesting to see the enforcement authority is Trading Standards, I've yet to see them in a marina asking for RCD compliance paperwork

 

[Graham376]

But when it is relevant all a private importer has to do is to ensure his boat complied with the relevant conformity procedure when it was first available to the UK market, eg CE marking. I don't think anybody is going to ask for a RCD compliance certificate for a 2012 boat when that didn't exist at the time of manufacture. So, it is the CE marking we are talking about. I think that would apply to all EU boats, so you don't have to do anything. Interesting to see the enforcement authority is Trading Standards, I've yet to see them in a marina asking for RCD compliance paperwork

Don't forget there are many thousands of non-compliant boats out there, mine included, which were manufactured prior to CE marking and RCD.

 

[Tranona]

The link is from a broker offering dubious advice which will suit them. Which part of the RCD states that the legislation requires this, I cant find it, I cant see anything in this Directive which applies to Joe Public buying a boat. I realise it is to UK brokers advantage and others offering services to continue to say this, but where is the section in the RCD that applies? Are you not able to link it or quote from it?

Although it is from a broker it is identifying what is seen as barriers to importation of boats from the EU. You are assuming that "goods being placed on the market" means classes of goods, whereas it actually means the individual boat and pre 2017 boats do not comply with current UKCA requirements. You are reading the first bullet in 8 as meaning "relevant" as at the time of manufacture rather than at the time of being placed on the UK market. If that were the case then there would be no need to make the distinction between before and after 2017 - and there clearly is as there is no mechanism for converting pre 2017 CE marked boats into UKCA without going through a PCA. Post 2017 boats can get their RCD compliance converted to UKCA as described assuming the boat has not been changed to the extent that it would require recertification under the RCD anyway.

The article clearly identifies the lack of clarity as to whether that is the interpretation or whether your reading will apply. It may well be that common sense will prevail and pre 2017 Certificates of Conformity together with all the other paperwork required by the RCD will be accepted, but there is no indication from all the published material on the subject that this is the case. Instinct tells me that unless there is a campaign as there was for the relaxation of the RGR rules there will be a strict interpretation and any import will have to meet current UKCA standards. Remember the whole thrust of Brexit was to escape from EU regulations so there is little incentive to make exceptions. It took 3 years to get the RGR sorted out even though the 3 year limit had always been flexible.

As to enforcement, this has always been at the point of import unless an issue arises subsequently - for example there have been cases where boats have been found not to comply despite the manufacturer certifying them and Trading Standards have investigated and in some cases brought charges.. So the idea that Trading Standards would patrol marinas looking for offenders is laughable. The number of boats that are likely to have to navigate this tortuous process will be tiny, as it has been in the past.

The onus is on the importer to declare what he is importing so that it can be assessed and private individual considering importing a boat would be wise to clarify with customs exactly what is needed to use the boat legally in the UK before committing.

 

[nevis768]

Although it is from a broker it is identifying what is seen as barriers to importation of boats from the EU. You are assuming that "goods being placed on the market" means classes of goods, whereas it actually means the individual boat and pre 2017 boats do not comply with current UKCA requirements. You are reading the first bullet in 8 as meaning "relevant" as at the time of manufacture rather than at the time of being placed on the UK market. If that were the case then there would be no need to make the distinction between before and after 2017 - and there clearly is as there is no mechanism for converting pre 2017 CE marked boats into UKCA without going through a PCA. Post 2017 boats can get their RCD compliance converted to UKCA as described assuming the boat has not been changed to the extent that it would require recertification under the RCD anyway.

The article clearly identifies the lack of clarity as to whether that is the interpretation or whether your reading will apply. It may well be that common sense will prevail and pre 2017 Certificates of Conformity together with all the other paperwork required by the RCD will be accepted, but there is no indication from all the published material on the subject that this is the case. Instinct tells me that unless there is a campaign as there was for the relaxation of the RGR rules there will be a strict interpretation and any import will have to meet current UKCA standards. Remember the whole thrust of Brexit was to escape from EU regulations so there is little incentive to make exceptions. It took 3 years to get the RGR sorted out even though the 3 year limit had always been flexible.

As to enforcement, this has always been at the point of import unless an issue arises subsequently - for example there have been cases where boats have been found not to comply despite the manufacturer certifying them and Trading Standards have investigated and in some cases brought charges.. So the idea that Trading Standards would patrol marinas looking for offenders is laughable. The number of boats that are likely to have to navigate this tortuous process will be tiny, as it has been in the past.

The onus is on the importer to declare what he is importing so that it can be assessed and private individual considering importing a boat would be wise to clarify with customs exactly what is needed to use the boat legally in the UK before committing.

This is all opinion which is irrelevant, what is relevant is what the Act says, the Act's purpose is to control bodies which are distributing and marketing boats in the UK. This is the introduction to the Act which explains its scope and intentions, this is not my opinion,this is what the Act says :

1. Introduction​

This Guide is for businesses placing recreational craft on the market in Great Britain.

Read guidance on the regulations in Northern Ireland

This Guide is designed to help you understand The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017, as they apply in Great Britain (referred to in this document as “The 2017 Regulations”). The 2017 Regulations set out the requirements that must be met before products can be placed on the GB market. The purpose of the legislation is to ensure safe products are placed on the GB market by requiring manufacturers to show how their products meet the ‘essential requirements’.

This guidance is relevant to manufacturers, importers (including private importers) and distributors of recreational craft, personal watercraft and certain engines and other specified components. It will also be of interest to consumers and approved bodies. This guidance also sets out the enforcement regime.

You can see Private importers are mentioned above, they are actually defined in the Act along with Importers as above :

• Importer – A person established in the UK who places a product from a country outside of the UK on the GB market. This includes a person based in NI who has been supplied with the product from an EEA country, who would, under NI law, be a distributor. A person who before 1 January 2021 (under EU Rules) distributed recreational craft within the EU (including the UK) will now be an importer if they are bringing recreational craft into GB from another country (including EU Member States).

So, Importers are not private individuals buying second hand boats, this defines persons/ companies selling boats in the UK, and the intention is to target new boats

The Act defines Private Importers,

“private importer” means a person established within the EU who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a watercraft from a third country into the EU with the intention of putting it into service for that person’s own use;

Therefore, since Brexit this no longer applies to Brits, we aren't in the EU.

Also, putting into service above is defined,
“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

This is relevant to private importer above, so buying a second hand boat does NOT fit the definition in the Act for 'putting into service' and also we aren't in the EU. So nothing in this Act applies or even mentions anybody going abroad and buying a second hand boat. Such a person does not fit the definition of Importer or private importer, nor are they putting what they buy into service as per the RCD, and the intention of the Act was never to target such individuals anyway.
To be quite honest, having researched it all, to say people buying second hand boats for their own use in France or anywhere in Europe need RCD assessment when they come back is such a load of absolute twaddle. There is not one definition in the Act to cover such a person or practice.

 

[smert]

Was there not some other act that said in effect any reference in any other act to EU should be taken as a reference to UK (because the Gov didn't have time to update all legislative texts)?

In which case "putting into service... ...in the EU" becomes "putting into service... ...in the UK".

 

[nevis768]

Was there not some other act that said in effect any reference in any other act to EU should be taken as a reference to UK (because the Gov didn't have time to update all legislative texts)?

In which case "putting into service... ...in the EU" becomes "putting into service... ...in the UK".

I'm not aware of that, I think the legislation was generally changed, there were 140000 amendments after Brexit. Please post a link or quote if you know different , but in any case the middle bit of the definition which you have not quoted, says, “putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user, so it's clearly not referring to somebody buying a secondhand boat for their own use because, for example, there are dozens of other boats such as Jen or Bene. It's referring to first use, and the Act is about stopping importers of untested new vessels as defined above, to provide protection to the public.

Also interestingly, there is a footnote in the Act,

2: Until 11pm 31 December 2024, products conforming to EU rules, including the CE marking, may be placed on the market of Great Britain.

So, none of the Act applies until Dec 2024 as far as EU boats are concerned.

 

[doug748]

I think you are probably 100% correct nevis. People bringing a boat in will just pay the VAT and get on with it. Who knows, who cares.

However, with a high value vessel I can see how some folk might get windy. Hence this bogie gets a regular resurrection.

And to be fair, ridiculous regulations are in place elsewhere
And , also, to be fair, we are asked to accept complete nonsense in other areas of contemporary life - so people are understandably wary of government and law.

.

 

[nevis768]

I think you are probably 100% correct nevis. People bringing a boat in will just pay the VAT and get on with it. Who knows, who cares.

However, with a high value vessel I can see how some folk might get windy. Hence this bogie gets a regular resurrection.

And to be fair, ridiculous regulations are in place elsewhere
And , also, to be fair, we are asked to accept complete nonsense in other areas of contemporary life - so people are understandably wary of government and law.

.

I think that's correct, nobody knows, nobody cares, and there has never been a prosecution as far as I can find out because it is all a load of twaddle, and it suits some businesses to propagate it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think you are probably 100% correct nevis. People bringing a boat in will just pay the VAT and get on with it. Who knows, who cares.

However, with a high value vessel I can see how some folk might get windy. Hence this bogie gets a regular resurrection.

And to be fair, ridiculous regulations are in place elsewhere
And , also, to be fair, we are asked to accept complete nonsense in other areas of contemporary life - so people are understandably wary of government and law.

.

You are probably correct that for a medium to low priced boat you could pay the VAT and getaway with it but for a high priced boat particularly when it comes to resale everything has to be in order or the broker will have double representing the boat and the resale price will be seriously affected.

 

[Tranona]

This is relevant to private importer above, so buying a second hand boat does NOT fit the definition in the Act for 'putting into service' and also we aren't in the EU. So nothing in this Act applies or even mentions anybody going abroad and buying a second hand boat. Such a person does not fit the definition of Importer or private importer, nor are they putting what they buy into service as per the RCD, and the intention of the Act was never to target such individuals anyway.
To be quite honest, having researched it all, to say people buying second hand boats for their own use in France or anywhere in Europe need RCD assessment when they come back is such a load of absolute twaddle. There is not one definition in the Act to cover such a person or practice.

I am afraid you are at odds with every other commentator on the subject. Suggest you test it out or ask Trading Standards or any of the trade bodies that deal with this on a daily basis.

 

[nevis768]

I am afraid you are at odds with every other commentator on the subject. Suggest you test it out or ask Trading Standards or any of the trade bodies that deal with this on a daily basis.

The thing is Trading Standards don't deal with people buying second hand boats and bringing them here, there are no examples anywhere. Some commentators have vested interests and some are running businesses profiting from it.

I think if you want to disagree you need to show where in this Act it applies, and what about foot note 2 stating it doesn't take effect until Dec 2024?

I do deal with legislation and, previously, enforcement, which is why I checked the Act, it clearly doesn't apply to second hand boat buyers, nor would it make any sense if it did.

As you said above, opinions don't matter without evidence, and you and the rest of the commentators (UK brokers and others with a vested interest) don't have any whatsoever, if you have a relevant piece of the Act please post it, particularly one stating any of this applies before Dec 24.
If you can't indicate which part of the Act applies and post it, I don't see much point in you posting your or others opinions. I realise you and others have been citing this for years, but the Act doesn't support you and it's introduction shows very clearly it was never intended for the purpose you state.
I note you have not posted any relevant legislation so far.

 

[nevis768]

You are probably correct that for a medium to low priced boat you could pay the VAT and getaway with it but for a high priced boat particularly when it comes to resale everything has to be in order or the broker will have double representing the boat and the resale price will be seriously affected.

I don't think so, because its quite clear this Act doesn't apply to second hand boats, its for certification of new boats.
If you disagree post some evidence from the Act, not unevidenced opinions.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

A couple of years ago I looked at purchasing a US boat that was already in the UK after an Atlantic crossing, it became evident in discussions with the broker it would require certificating and that would require considerable replacement of machinery as well as the VAT implication. It made an already very expensive boat to expensive. It was eventually withdrawn from sale and returned to the States.

 

[nevis768]

A couple of years ago I looked at purchasing a US boat that was already in the UK after an Atlantic crossing, it became evident in discussions with the broker it would require certificating and that would require considerable replacement of machinery as well as the VAT implication. It made an already very expensive boat to expensive. It was eventually withdrawn from sale and returned to the States.

Really, then please indicate which part of the RCD your broker quoted to you, or did you just believe him? Act and section please, no fairy stories....hard facts only.

 

[Tranona]

The thing is Trading Standards don't deal with people buying second hand boats and bringing them here, there are no examples anywhere. Some commentators have vested interests and some are running businesses profiting from it.

Well they do. This is nothing new and has been going on since 1997/8 when the RCD came in. There are plenty of examples of boats going through PCA on import, not least the well known Tom Cunliffe writing up his experience in Yachting Monthly. In the MCA report on a fatal incident involving a "grey" import from USA one of the recommendations was that the authorities (HMRC and Trading Standards) made more efforts to make importers of used boats of the need to get them correctly certified.

The issue now highlighted by the link I gave you is whether pre 2017 CE marked boats require PCA to meet UKCA. Many will need little change if their engines are post 2013 and therefore meeting the latest regs, some, particularly small sports boats will find difficulty in meeting the revised stability requirements to retain their CATB rating. Clearly pre 1998 boats won't. This was not a problem before Brexit because there was the exemption in place, but that does not seem to be there.

You are reading what you want to read. Everything you refer to is to do with the relationship between CE and UKCA in this "new" transition period. It does not change the fact that ALL boats coming into the UK irrespective of who the importer is require certification and if the importer is a private person it is their responsibility to arrange it. Why do you think it would be any different from what has been the case since 1998?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Really, then please indicate which part of the RCD your broker quoted to you, or did you just believe him? Act and section please, no fairy stories....hard facts only.

It's 2 years ago and it was a reputable broker that earns their living from selling boats and representing both seller and purchaser and understand the legislation that surrounds it. I chose to believe them and still do rather than someone that simply wants to believe what they choose to.

 

[nevis768]

Well they do. This is nothing new and has been going on since 1997/8 when the RCD came in. There are plenty of examples of boats going through PCA on import, not least the well known Tom Cunliffe writing up his experience in Yachting Monthly. In the MCA report on a fatal incident involving a "grey" import from USA one of the recommendations was that the authorities (HMRC and Trading Standards) made more efforts to make importers of used boats of the need to get them correctly certified.

The issue now highlighted by the link I gave you is whether pre 2017 CE marked boats require PCA to meet UKCA. Many will need little change if their engines are post 2013 and therefore meeting the latest regs, some, particularly small sports boats will find difficulty in meeting the revised stability requirements to retain their CATB rating. Clearly pre 1998 boats won't. This was not a problem before Brexit because there was the exemption in place, but that does not seem to be there.

You are reading what you want to read. Everything you refer to is to do with the relationship between CE and UKCA in this "new" transition period. It does not change the fact that ALL boats coming into the UK irrespective of who the importer is require certification and if the importer is a private person it is their responsibility to arrange it. Why do you think it would be any different from what has been the case since 1998?

The RCD 2017 came in on 2017, why are you saying it started in 1998? These irrelevant unsupported examples/ fairy stories are twaddle. I've read the whole Act, and quoted the relevant parts. You don't seem able to do that, is that correct? Just quote the part of the legislation which supports what you say, Act and section. That's what I have done. Further you say above, HRMC are one of the authorities, they are not, it is nothing to do with them, it's trading standards, that's what the Act says.