Need advice on tarting up boat

[jfm]

Thanks for the link

In more ways than one

Each to their own on all this but fwiw I wouldn't fit Amtico. It's high quality for plastic but you think "That's Amtico" as soon as you see it". also I don't agree with Betramdriver that dark floors are bad/radiators in the med. I'm on second boat with very dark wood floor and it isn't a problem at all. The heat capacity of wood is tiny so as a matter of physics it cannot function as a radiator/heat store

I'm still of the view you should rip that white stuff out and fit new. FWIW, I am going to pay an arm and a leg to have element7's own cabinet makers fly/drive down to Antibes in about 8 weeks and fit their floor to a house I'm in the process of buying. They are the only guys who do this right, that I know of. I'm having some stairs done so they will make nosing section and stain it to match the floor planks. If you want to piggyback this and have them drive to the 630 and do that too, then it will be cheaper than going at alone. Cheaper, but not cheap in an absolute sense of course! I've forgotten where the 630 is Deleted User but I vaguely remember you mentioned a handover in MC? Or if she is lying near Genoa then the trip to Antibes is easy anyway, or they can drive to Genoa

Ref their website, the strip flooring is listed as "wide plank" only but they happily supply narrower (eg 150mm) boards that are more in proportion in a boat. 2nd pic on top row here http://www.fairline.com/en/boats/squadron/78-custom/gallery shows this (obviously you might not want it as dark as this but they do any colour)

 

[John100156]

In more ways than one

Each to their own on all this but fwiw I wouldn't fit Amtico. It's high quality for plastic but you think "That's Amtico" as soon as you see it". also I don't agree with Betramdriver that dark floors are bad/radiators in the med. I'm on second boat with very dark wood floor and it isn't a problem at all. The heat capacity of wood is tiny so as a matter of physics it cannot function as a radiator/heat store

I'm still of the view you should rip that white stuff out and fit new. FWIW, I am going to pay an arm and a leg to have element7's own cabinet makers fly/drive down to Antibes in about 8 weeks and fit their floor to a house I'm in the process of buying. They are the only guys who do this right, that I know of. I'm having some stairs done so they will make nosing section and stain it to match the floor planks. If you want to piggyback this and have them drive to the 630 and do that too, then it will be cheaper than going at alone. Cheaper, but not cheap in an absolute sense of course! I've forgotten where the 630 is Deleted User but I vaguely remember you mentioned a handover in MC? Or if she is lying near Genoa then the trip to Antibes is easy anyway, or they can drive to Genoa

Ref their website, the strip flooring is listed as "wide plank" only but they happily supply narrower (eg 150mm) boards that are more in proportion in a boat. 2nd pic on top row here http://www.fairline.com/en/boats/squadron/78-custom/gallery shows this (obviously you might not want it as dark as this but they do any colour)

I certainly don't disagree that real wood is best! We are though concerned here with radiation from the surface, so emissivity and absorptivity both come into play, not solely specific heat capacity; The emissivity figures quoted for various materials are based on a black body defined as one which absorbs totally all radiation falling onto its surface, hence its emissivity being 1. What is interesting here is that a very thin Amtico tile cannot store much heat and their emissivity at 0.90–0.92 is actually very close to varnish at 0.80–0.98.

I am not advocating pure vinyl flooring but I must say having seen some recent Amtico floors, very well laid, they do come very close indeed and are also very hard wearing/durable, particularly when the grandkids attack the boat with their fizzy drinks..;-) Karndean comes a close second! I wonder how Mark (Elessar) is getting on with his vinyl teak, only time will tell I suppose.

 

[jfm]

I certainly don't disagree that real wood is best! We are though concerned here with radiation from the surface, so emissivity and absorptivity both come into play, not solely specific heat capacity; The emissivity figures quoted for various materials are based on a black body defined as one which absorbs totally all radiation falling onto its surface, hence its emissivity being 1. What is interesting here is that a very thin Amtico tile cannot store much heat and their emissivity at 0.90–0.92 is actually very close to varnish at 0.80–0.98.

I am not advocating pure vinyl flooring but I must say having seen some recent Amtico floors, very well laid, they do come very close indeed and are also very hard wearing/durable, particularly when the grandkids attack the boat with their fizzy drinks..;-) Karndean comes a close second! I wonder how Mark (Elessar) is getting on with his vinyl teak, only time will tell I suppose.

I don't disagree the principles but there is a risk here of overstating the real world effect/quantities here. Sure a dark floor will have higher emissivity and absorptivity than a light floor and will reach equilibrium at a higher temp. In other words it will be hotter in the sun, AOTBE. But the real driver is still the absence of any real heat capacity.

Estimate that the white floor in the sun settles at 40degC and the dark floor at 50degC. There is about 150kilos of wood in that floor so the extra 10 degrees is around 2.5KJ or 2500BTU. (Heat capacity of wood is 1.7KJ/Kg/degree). So when you get to the evening and your dark hot wood floor is "radiating" its heat back to the boat, creating discomfort, it has an extra 2500 BTU to dissipate on account of being dark.

A small house has a 60kBTU/hour boiler, so the amount of "problem heat" you have to deal with here is the same amount of energy as running your central heating full blast in a small house for 2.5 minutes. My boat has 120kBTU/h of Airco so I guess a Ferretti 630 has 90k, so if Mike runs it for just 100 seconds it has extracted all the extra heat in 150 kilos/20 Sqm of dark wood floor. Hence, my point is that the 2500 BTU of "problem heat" from the dark wood floor is peanuts John in the grand scheme of things.

I realise I'm comparing dark vs light wood not dark wood vs Amtico, because I don't have amtico data, but the order of magnitude is the same

In contrast to that 2.5minutes/100 seconds John, Deleted User has to look at the Amtico/white floor for a lifetime!

 

[RogerRat]

Without going into details, SL have been excellent in terms of agreeing to virtually all of the other requests we had, including some major cost items, so I'm not complaining too much about the saloon floor

Hi Mike,

Congratulations on your new boat, most only dream of owning something like a 630 Ferri'.

This is a class boat, unfortunately, we don't see enough of them over here, probably because they're a little on the large size for Solent use. That said, Ferretti are one of the quality names and the number in use says it all. The 630 looks very spacious and the Chaise longue', a lovely but inviting touch if you want a cool place to take a reading break.

Loved the MAN controller screen and the stern docking station too.

I can see where your coming from on 'tarting' her up but the best thing here is that the boat is very 'neutral' and unspoiled, which almost gives you carte blanche to bring colour in by accessory. Don't rush to rip out that floor, it would be a mistake, I feel. See how you get on with rugs and carpets. In this way you could even change on season/time of year.

Keep us posted. :encouragement:

RR

 

[John100156]

JFM good fun debating all this and certainly within my field of expertise, but I was comparing wood to vinyl not light wood to dark. It would be fun to do the calcs, using sensible assumptions, I have the formulas which as you know for both radiated and convective energy balances can be very complex, not least would include local air velocities, mean radiant surface temps of surrounding objects and the exponential delay in heat flow as the substrate cools, hey also the benefits in intermediate season where the heat release might actually be desirable as the evenings get cooler, reducing the cost of heating! Ohhh if only we had time to play with this, I really like the theoretical side but as you say, not real world, sole of the feet test and SWMBO's built in thermostat likely the best test method (perhaps not he latter)!

I prefer the lighter wood finish myself....!

 

[jfm]

real world, sole of the feet test and SWMBO's built in thermostat likely the best test method

I can vouch for that having had 2 boats with dark wood floors, including current one, and it just aint a problem. I've never ever thought "Oooh this floor is too hot!"

Walking outside on the teak foredeck mid afternoon is proper Ooh er ouch! stuff, as it will be for you guys in SC, but I count that as a good quality problem

 

[petem]

Mike, is the beading glued to the furniture?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, is the beading glued to the furniture?

I believe so

 

[petem]

So how would they get it off without damaging the furniture? Last thing you'd want is that it damages the lacquer or worse still the veneer?

 

[LionsDen]

Hi Mike - Slight thread drift - I assume Jim Pritchard did a good survey for you and his banter on overseas surveys was entertaining - Terry

 

[MapisM]

So how would they get it off without damaging the furniture? Last thing you'd want is that it damages the lacquer or worse still the veneer?

Yep, I would think that's the main reason why the surveyor warned Deleted User about the risks of the removal (post #50).
SL might have argued just because they didn't want to do that, but Jim saw and surveyed the boat.
If he told that the furniture is likely to be damaged by the removal, you can take his word for it.

 

[Nick_H]

Mike, surely the edge trim is going to need removing even if you decide to fit Amtico, as you're not going to want white edge trim protruding above it at the sides, in which case you may as well replace with real wood flooring. I'd guess the way to remove it may be to score the veneer of the furniture level with the top of the trim to avoid the risk of any splintering of the veneer above that level. You'd then have to replace the trim with something of the same or greater height to cover any damage, so that the top of it sits at least as high as the top of the old trim.

The only other way I suppose is to sand and stain the existing trim (assuming it's solid wood) to match the new flooring, and you could then maybe use Amtico, but you'd be trying to fit the Amtico against an existing trim, which would be very difficult to do neatly i'd have thought.

I think that floor is going to have to come out

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Hi Mike - Slight thread drift - I assume Jim Pritchard did a good survey for you and his banter on overseas surveys was entertaining - Terry

Yes Jim was excellent and very thorough. He didn't want me present for the survey which was understandable and unfortunately, I wasn't present for the seatrial either because my SWMBO rather inconsiderately decided to break her leg skiing a couple of days before the seatrial took place so, actually, I've never met Jim so not had the pleasure of hearing his banter! However his very detailed report has given me the confidence that I'm buying a sound boat so I'm grateful for that

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, surely the edge trim is going to need removing even if you decide to fit Amtico, as you're not going to want white edge trim protruding above it at the sides, in which case you may as well replace with real wood flooring. I'd guess the way to remove it may be to score the veneer of the furniture level with the top of the trim to avoid the risk of any splintering of the veneer above that level. You'd then have to replace the trim with something of the same or greater height to cover any damage, so that the top of it sits at least as high as the top of the old trim.

Yes Nick you're right. The edge trim is a problem and its going to have to be removed whether the wood is replaced or covered with new tiling. I'm going out to the San Lorenzo yard next week to finalise some details on the boat and then I'll have an opportunity to discuss with their woodwork craftsmen exactly what they think is possible. At the moment, I'm leaning more towards re-staining the whole floor it rather than replacing it or, alternatively, having some custom rugs made up to cover most of it or possibly doing both

 

[petem]

Mike, surely the edge trim is going to need removing even if you decide to fit Amtico, as you're not going to want white edge trim protruding above it at the sides, in which case you may as well replace with real wood flooring. I'd guess the way to remove it may be to score the veneer of the furniture level with the top of the trim to avoid the risk of any splintering of the veneer above that level. You'd then have to replace the trim with something of the same or greater height to cover any damage, so that the top of it sits at least as high as the top of the old trim.

Our poxy firewall won't allow me to view your photobucket pics so I can't validate this idea....

How about scoring the veneer to isolate the potential damage (as Nick suggests) then prise the trim off. Re-carpet and cover the damaged veneered area with a strip of polished stainless steel to give a skirting affect?

 

[jfm]

Yep, I would think that's the main reason why the surveyor warned Deleted User about the risks of the removal (post #50).
SL might have argued just because they didn't want to do that, but Jim saw and surveyed the boat.
If he told that the furniture is likely to be damaged by the removal, you can take his word for it.

Makes no sense to me. If you fit new floor and the footprint of the old edge trim is unsightly, you'd just fit new edge trim in dark colour, covering the footprint of the old edge trim.

Sure, I'd prefer no edge trim at all but having new edge trim to cover the footprint of the old is no worse than the status quo.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Makes no sense to me. If you fit new floor and the footprint of the old edge trim is unsightly, you'd just fit new edge trim in dark colour, covering the footprint of the old edge trim.

Sure, I'd prefer no edge trim at all but having new edge trim to cover the footprint of the old is no worse than the status quo.

Just to clarify this edge trim business, obviously its not too much of an issue in the saloon where the edge trim is butted up against the wooden furniture because I agree, the edge trim can probably removed without damaging the wood above edge trim level, although it won't be easy because I think the edge trim is glued. However what the surveyor was referring to mainly was in the cabin accommodation where the edge trim has been butted up, probably glued to, a fabric wall covering that Ferretti have used down here, for example in the main cabin below

I believe that the surveyor was concerned that removing the edge trim at these points might damage the fabric wall covering above the level of of the edge trim. Its not an issue in the sleeping cabins because SL are installing carpets foc which I hope will hide the edge trim to some degree and the surveyor has made sure they understand this. However it is an issue in other areas of the boat wherever the edge trim butts up against fabric material, such as in the corridor between the cabins where I do not want carpet because of the heavy traffic

 

[KevB]

Bit late coming in to this but i like it just the way it is. As said, a few cushions and some well placed rugs will make it very homely. Congratulations Mike.

Re carpet in the bedrooms and the edge trim, once the carpet is laid can't you add your own skirting to cover up any damage left by the old stuff. Skirting to match the woodwork?

 

[jfm]

Erk, what a pain mike. I hadn't spotted that detail in the cabin. Yes, if the edge trim is glued to the fabric wall removing it will be a right mess. Also, TBH, if the edge trim is left in place I do not see how the new carpet (laid on top of the wood floor I guess?) is going to cover that edge trim nicely anyway. I'd prefer the look of a small varnished teak-colour skirting board to match Ferretti's wood, to that white trim. But you can only do what you can do, I guess. Good luck devising solution next week

 

[John100156]

Yes Jim was excellent and very thorough. He didn't want me present for the survey which was understandable and unfortunately, I wasn't present for the seatrial either because my SWMBO rather inconsiderately decided to break her leg skiing a couple of days before the seatrial took place so, actually, I've never met Jim so not had the pleasure of hearing his banter! However his very detailed report has given me the confidence that I'm buying a sound boat so I'm grateful for that

Jim has surveyed four boats for me, two in the UK and two in Spain, I like his no-nonsense style of reporting he just gets on with it and is very thorough and knowledgable. I would certainly use him again.