Name and Shame Time

[tripleace]

Re: Client Account

read my post about Gibbs Marine and the money ( almost £20,000) that went into a client account and then just sat there....

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=mby&Number=382285&Search=true&Forum=mby&Words=gibbs&Match=Or&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1month&Main=382285> Gibbs marine thread</A>

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[PGD]

The othe rline I used on the Insurance Clerk was that they were incompetant and I'd report them to their line manager if they didn't settle the claim, that worked too, as said before it's a case of getting them to focus their minds in a way that get's the job done. Woe betide anyone that trys to pull a fast one with me /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mssa.org.uk>http://www.mssa.org.uk</A> Marine Service Standards Assistance

 

[Gludy]

Unbelievable - I was prmised by Mr. Dicke himself that tne bank stransfer would be done today. I gave him the bank details yesterday.

I waited with baited breath this morning and did get a telephone call to ask me for my bank details from the Swansea office! I gave them again after pointing out that the boss already had them - they then said they would arrange the transfer and tell me when done.

Hearing nothing I phoned at just gone 2pm - no answer from Swandea so back to head office where I am told they can probably not transfer today because the finance director is not there at the moment. The lady who was very polite told me that they only received the bank details from Swansea late this morning, which was no doubt true but missed the point that the details were given to the boss at his request yesterday!

I am trying very hard to control myself and have asked now for a £1000 rebate for the lack of care etc they have shown towards me. My attitude now is that from here on they pay for their mistakes.

The boat had already been sold by them once before and I turned down a private buyer deal because I had signed contracts with their buyer. It turned out that the buyer was a fake prankster but it took me pushing the situation to establish that over a number of weeks.

Never again shall I let a broker act on my behalf. I am livid.
I do not think that Dickies are trying to hold onto my money on purpose - I think they are just incompetent!

I have also informed them of this thread - should make good reading for them.



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[tcm]

Re: Client Account shocker

This a all pretty horrific. As INunderstand it, solicitors run client accounts but are severely duffed up if they play ducks and drakes with them by the Law Soc. Whereas I know of know real regulations governing "client accounts" for boat dealers. Perhaps best to make sure a solicitor holds the money, shouldn't be expensive to orgainse.

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[Gludy]

Re: Client Account shocker

I have just been phoned by Dickies of Bangor that the transfer has gone ahead this afternoon but they cannot say when it will arrive in my bank because of the lateness in the day.

I have now requested a £1000 refund from them for all my trouble and for the way they messed up the earlier sale. I am assured that this request has been passed onto Mr. Dickie and I await a response.

The simple fact is that they have not provided a good service to a proper professional standard and I should not pay them the agreed fee that has been deducted from the transfer. The £1000 refund is frankly more than fair to them and a refund would be a real measure of how sorry they were for the saga.

I await with baited breath - the question is are Dickies willing to recompense for bad service or not? To date I have had to fight all the way for the mess they made with the first purchase and to sort out this mess - so their late transfer of funds is simply giving me my own money after a fight. So far they have not reduced their bill by a penny to reflect the deplorable mess.





<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[milltech]

There are good ones too!

I understand your resentment but actually there are good brokers out there! On the East Coast the appropriately named David East for one, on the South Coast the most excellent David Smithells of Williams and Smithells.

I have multiple experiences of both and have no complaints on any score. Helpful before, during, and after a sale.


<hr width=100% size=1>John
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.allgadgets.co.uk>http://www.allgadgets.co.uk</A>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by milltech on 14/08/2003 15:16 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[david_e]

Re: Give \'em a break.

Your request for £1,000 refund is a tad unreasonable. It wasn't on the agenda until the delay over fund transfers, so just for this small error to start demanding a grand is out of order, and if push came to shove (ie Court) despite all the goings on I doubt that you would have a leg to stand on. In real non or late payment terms you are lucky, this could go on for yonks if they were being awkward.

I have bought a few boats from Dickies and they are by no means perfect, but compared to many they are excellent and Peter Dickie will intervene and help when he can. Don't forget he has the whole gambit to deal with; sales, chandlery, brokerage, repairs, a big yard, offices in foreign countries (including Wales!) and a whole host of other day to day things.

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[ccscott49]

Re: There are good ones too!

I agree with the williams and smithells, I also had excellent service from Berthons.

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[Gludy]

Re: Give \'em a break.

You ask that I give them a break.

I have had folks in Swansea Marina pleading with me to take them to task on the deplorable service I had suffered prior to the latest episode. I did not do it because I try to escape to the boat not take agro with me.

They dealt very badly with a buyer who turned out to be fake and lost me a private sale... lots os promises they never kept and lots of non-returned phone calls.

"Your request for £1,000 refund is a tad unreasonable. It wasn't on the agenda until the delay over fund transfers"

I was hoping that Mr. Dickie would offer some recompense for the bad service - he did not. Today took me over the edge and I asked for the £1000 reduction which is frankly more than fair. I am testing to see if they think they should be paid the agreed amount after delivering what Mr. Dickie agrees is a poor service.

This is the basic question - should the supplier of the poor service claim the full amount for a professional service when they agree they have delivered the poor service? You seem to think they should, I think they should not.

I have this afternoon had a polite conversation with Mr. Dickie and he has asked for time to consider the issues - I agreed to that.

"Peter Dickie will intervene and help when he can. Don't forget he has the whole gambit to deal with; sales, chandlery, brokerage, repairs, a big yard, offices in foreign countries (including Wales!) and a whole host of other day to day things. "

I am sure he is a nice person and a busy man but do not expect me to feel sorry for him having to run so many parts of an organisation - I know what it is like however his problems are not my, the customer's problems - they are his problems. I should not be asked to pay for a proper service and not receive that proper service. Do you agree?

At the end of the day the issue is simple - I have received a sub standard service - Dickies agree and have apologised - therefore why should they retain the full agreed amount?



<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[tcm]

One example of why NOT to name and shame

The request for a fee reduction of an arbitrary £1,000 is not "frankly more than fair". You could raise the question of lost interest, though this is not likely to be that large a sum (yet).

I do not plan to attack or defend Dickie's but would ask this - when people have done a service above and beyond the call of duty, have you overpaid them? Sure, you've given tips in restaurants etc. But have you ever in the course of business given a tip (or been given) £1,000? I wd say you have not.

The amount is arbitrary, and invalid, imho. Unless, of course, the agreement was that the fee was to vary according to these parameters - which I'm guessing it didn't.

There are two sides to the name and shame game. We had a customer who was utterly convinced we were rooking her - that she's seen something at a sales presentation that we then didn't deliver to her company. But she could not have seen what she said, because we simply do not have that product. But she went ape, calling solicitors etc etc. yet the fact was it simply could not have been us - perhaps a competitor. Eventually, very reluctantly, I settled, essentially to get rid. She was most haughty, pleased we'd admitted our "guilt", the whole thing very nasty. With name and shame opportunities, she could have done us damage, and would have - but she was wrong.

Name and shame can sometimes be a non-violent form of taking the law into your own hands. You decide the rights and wrongs (usually, the namer is entirely right) and then rather than use the legal system, they go public, with the aim of doing as much damage as possible.

What Dickies *might* do, if all you say is correct, is to offer a percentage reduction on the NEXT time you do business with them - in the interests of preserving goodwill. This might be worth £1,000, or more. If you refuse the offer and insist on the cash reduction now, then you clearly have no intention fo doing business again, and there obviously isn't any goodwill to preserve - so they may as well insist on the full fee.


all imho.


all imho




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[Rob_Webb]

Re: One example of why NOT to name and shame

Matt

Whilst I take your point about the potential for mis-use of 'name and shame' tactics, I disagree with your take on Paul's situation here. I think it is much simpler than this. Paul agreed to pay Dickies a fair fee for a fair service. What he doesn't appear to have received is a fair service.

Now, you might reasonably expect to build some tolerance into your expectation so if the service is a few points below par you might not be skipping through the meadows but at the same time don't feel driven to ask for a refund.

But here, Paul seems to have been really mucked about and basically had to do half the broker's job for him. So surely it fair to point out that the service has fallen signifacntly below expectations and therefore the fee for that service should be reconsidered?

My only criticism of Paul's approach was to have asked for the £1,000 outright - I might have firstly got Mr Dickie to admit the problem and then invite him to offer recompense.

Otherwise, how bad does the service have to be before we speak out and question full payment?

Finally, on the point of what to do if you receive service well above expectations, well, sing the praises of that organisation to all who listen and let them enjoy the benefits of such good publicity.....

Rob

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[Gludy]

Re: One example of why NOT to name and shame

TCM

I have run a number of large businesses myself and been faced with the same issue that Mr. Dickie is now faced with. I actually offered reductions before being asked to show good will. This is probably why you have a bigger boat than me!

I have also had extreme customers who were black and white wrong that have done us damage.

On this issue I have reporeted the facts and the balanced facts.

I can tell you that to offer compensation in the form of a reduction next time I sell my boat would not be greeted well at all. Its not the sort of thing you do every week, month or year!

I can also say that I would probably win in a court case because of my extra costs that were involved in their lack of competence concerning the fake buyer - I can show loss exceeding what I am asking for. However to make it clear to all - I am not going to take this to court. Life is simply too short for that.

If I have misreported any facts (which I have not) then I can be publically corrected here on the forum. The fact is that Mr. Dickie who does seem to be a nice chap has apologised for subs standard service - why then should he be paid the full agreed amount?

My next door neighbour at Swansea had problems with Dickies and they halfed the amount to him because they accepted that they had not done a proper job.

Until we the customers in the marine industry stand up to not paying the full amount for poor service nothing will ever be put right.

So TCM my question to you is this:-
Do you expect to pay the full agreed price to a supplier who has admitted to you that they have not provided the full service?







<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[martynwhiteley]

Re: One example of why NOT to name and shame

Surely it's worth a try asking for a refund.

This situation is typical of where individuals do get a rough deal when it comes to contract deliverables, that business organisations would never put up with.

If a company was using such services on a regular basis, they would have either:

a) The goodwill/withdrawal of ongoing custom to help secure a discount when services are poor (and such refunds are commonplace in the world of construction and engineering subcontracting, where many clients just refuse to pay the full amount knowing that it's not worth the supplier taking them to court).

b) A pre-arranged bank performance bond, that can be pulled 'on-deman' if the supplier fails to deliver a proper service.

c) Liquidated Damages to be deducted from the final account if deliverables are not produced on time.

Extra payments for 'good' service are unheared of.

If it is clear that the promised level of service has not been provided, and some form of 'damages' have been incurred by the customer, then why would a refund not be fair?

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Real boaters do it on the Humber </font color=blue>

 

[PGD]

Re: Give \'em a break.

Comes down to agent and Pricipal law and Sale of Goods and Services Act.... and part thereof , failure to provide a fit and proper service. You could ask for loss of interest on the money in the delay and something for the hassle.

Best of luck

Peter

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mssa.org.uk>http://www.mssa.org.uk</A> Marine Service Standards Assistance

 

[qsiv]

Re: There are good ones too!

I'd agree with Berthons - I've bought one and sold one through them, never been let down, and the current boat is being sold through them as well. Now if they can find me a buyer, I'll go and buy the next boat ..

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[paulrossall]

Re: One example of why NOT to name and shame

Paul
I support you 100%. Why should you have to keep on the brokers back making sure they are doing their job. The stress of what you have been through is incalculatable in monetary terms.

This business about paying more because someone gives a very good service is rubbish. You employ someone to do a good job for you and you pay them the money. Dickies have not done a good job at all, in fact it would appear they have been downright negligent, and you are correct to ask for a reduction in the fee. IMHO.

Keep going.
Good luck. Paul

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[Col]

Re: There are good ones too!

John. Have you got a contact no: for Williams and Smithells?
Cheers


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[Gludy]

Re: One example of why NOT to name and shame

I have now spoken again to Mr. Dickie and the matter is now settled.

In speaking to Mr. Dickie throughout this saga I have always found him polite and considerate. At the end of the day he did not give in to the public pressure imposed on him by this forum but reached an agreement with me based on being fair to his customer. He reached an agreement because he thought, after investigating the matter properly, that it was the right thing to do and I respect him so much for that, that I would deal with Dickies brokerage again because I know it is run by a man of integrity.

Further, I beleive that lessons have been learnt and that can only improve the situation for everyone in the future.

At no time through this episode have I thought that Dickies were holding on to the money intentionally and I was right. Yes they have made mistakes but they have owned up to them and put them right. I can ask no more.

I may have been rather quick of the mark in starting this thread because it did not leave Mr. Dickie enough time to carry out his investigation and deal with the matter and for that I apologise to him.







<hr width=100% size=1>Paul

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Its called an \"Escrow\" account

Only parties that have rights to the money can access the money - and that is controlled by a third party such as a solicitor. Escrow is safe - nothing else is!

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>

 

[asteven221]

As far as I am concered brokers are a complete rip off. I have sold a few boats successfully and here's how.

1. Take some nice pictures of your boat.
2. Type up a good spec list and description of the boat.
3. Publish the page on a web site which is easy to do with most ISP's.
4. Place an add in Boats and Yachts for sale with the web address.
5. Sit back and be overwhelmed by the interest.
6. I can almost guarantee that if your boat is priced correctly and described correctly you will sell it. All for the price of an advert.

It's worked for me every time. Brokers are not interested in selling your boat as they have had it too easy for too long. When the ball is on the other foot and you want to buy a boat via a broker, how often have you said to yourself "I am glad it's not my boat they are trying to sell". Also take a look around your local marina and see how quickly boats get sold. Some of them remain unsold for years and they are nice enough boats.

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