My Sailing Dinghy has got to have an engine, now which one?

[AntarcticPilot]

In that case, what a pity the company couldn't afford the redesign. Wouldn't it be possible today, with a fuel-system that accords with current laws? And, maybe a better silencer?

I think it was a bit more than a redesign, and the result would have been just like every other outboard on the market, removing Seagull's USP - simplicity. A Seagull really is about as simple an engine as you can make. Simplicity coupled with it being designed for pushing low-speed displacement hulls meant that it was ideal for yachts. Most other outboards (and the discussions about Dylan's Welly Centaur bear this out) are designed to push light, high-speed hulls.

Unfortunately, a redesign to meet the regulations would a) have meant completely redesigning the engine, not an evolutionary change, and b) would have involved increased complexity and (probably) c) difficulty in keeping the low-speed properties - basically, small two-strokes are more efficient if revving faster! It wouldn't have been a more efficient Seagull, it would have been something else entirely.

Of course, these days an engine with an exposed fly-wheel would probably never make it past the regulators!

 

[dartmoor]

I am one of those sad individuals who has had quite a few different small outboards over the years. Smallest I have owned was 1.5hp, largest 5hp. So I am at the bottom end of the scale in terms of boat ownership, also now having and loving a 14ft sailing boat - mine is a Voyager.

I have had seagulls in the past - the merits are well described in the post - although I am always bemused by people who say shove one in a locker and it will just be there ready to start. They are not that small - and the fuel caps invariably dribble and leak. The metals used in them have stood the test of time, and the agricultural build means they are tolerant to some abuse and neglect. But when running they spurt unburnt oil and fuel from every orifice. And for two strokes, they lack that advantage of being light - the 40plus is at least 15 kilos of solid metal. Just horrible to carry too! After using one, you'll either get burnt from accidentally touching the exhaust, and covered in oil from the black runs down the exhaust, and the layer of unburnt fuel/oil coating the carb, fuel tank, gear case and block!

Personally I love two strokes of good modern pedigree - but they do need looking after. The well loved Tohatsu/Mariner/Mercury 2.5/3.5 will develop noisy bearings in no time at all if water leaks back, or starved of oil. I once bought a real dog off ebay - a Tohatsu 3.5 with bearings that were well on the way to self-destruction. I was honest enough to resell it as "for parts" rather than as a wonderfully looked after outboard! And they will corrode inside and clog with salt if not meticulously flushed and maintained.

IMHO, for an output of 2.5hp, and on any boat where you want to keep weight to a minimum, you should set the short list by looking at the weight you are comfortable with. Personally I don't want anything heavier than 15kilos dry weight - actually my target would be 13kilos.

So on that basis, my short list would be: Honda 2.3, Suzuki 2.5, Torqeedo (if you can afford one!!), or the best two stroke you can find and buy.

I have a ten year old + Honda 2hp and have no complaints at all. I mostly use it at 1/4 throttle, and its not that noisy at that level! If you take any 2.5hp water cooled outboard to high revs, they are all pretty damn noisy! Probably indistinguishable in fact! The HUGE advantage of the Honda in my view is that it has no water passages to clog, and will never need flushing. That's a real premium in my view. Honda don't put their brand name to rubbish - so this engine is categorically not rubbish. Honda built their brand on producing quality small engines.

 

[steve66]

Well said that man!!

I am one of those sad individuals who has had quite a few different small outboards over the years. Smallest I have owned was 1.5hp, largest 5hp. So I am at the bottom end of the scale in terms of boat ownership, also now having and loving a 14ft sailing boat - mine is a Voyager.

I have had seagulls in the past - the merits are well described in the post - although I am always bemused by people who say shove one in a locker and it will just be there ready to start. They are not that small - and the fuel caps invariably dribble and leak. The metals used in them have stood the test of time, and the agricultural build means they are tolerant to some abuse and neglect. But when running they spurt unburnt oil and fuel from every orifice. And for two strokes, they lack that advantage of being light - the 40plus is at least 15 kilos of solid metal. Just horrible to carry too! After using one, you'll either get burnt from accidentally touching the exhaust, and covered in oil from the black runs down the exhaust, and the layer of unburnt fuel/oil coating the carb, fuel tank, gear case and block!

Personally I love two strokes of good modern pedigree - but they do need looking after. The well loved Tohatsu/Mariner/Mercury 2.5/3.5 will develop noisy bearings in no time at all if water leaks back, or starved of oil. I once bought a real dog off ebay - a Tohatsu 3.5 with bearings that were well on the way to self-destruction. I was honest enough to resell it as "for parts" rather than as a wonderfully looked after outboard! And they will corrode inside and clog with salt if not meticulously flushed and maintained.

IMHO, for an output of 2.5hp, and on any boat where you want to keep weight to a minimum, you should set the short list by looking at the weight you are comfortable with. Personally I don't want anything heavier than 15kilos dry weight - actually my target would be 13kilos.

So on that basis, my short list would be: Honda 2.3, Suzuki 2.5, Torqeedo (if you can afford one!!), or the best two stroke you can find and buy.

I have a ten year old + Honda 2hp and have no complaints at all. I mostly use it at 1/4 throttle, and its not that noisy at that level! If you take any 2.5hp water cooled outboard to high revs, they are all pretty damn noisy! Probably indistinguishable in fact! The HUGE advantage of the Honda in my view is that it has no water passages to clog, and will never need flushing. That's a real premium in my view. Honda don't put their brand name to rubbish - so this engine is categorically not rubbish. Honda built their brand on producing quality small engines.

 

[Lakesailor]

Honda don't put their brand name to rubbish -

Perhaps not rubbish, but certainly not the best available. My 5HP was a noisy, vibrating dog. Mind you the Honda 50 was and that's the design level for the outboard.
The Tohatsu (Mariner/Mercury/Nissan) is definitely the the best small out board out there. In my opinion.

 

[Greenheart]

I have had seagulls in the past - the merits are well described in the post - although I am always bemused by people who say shove one in a locker and it will just be there ready to start. They are not that small - and the fuel caps invariably dribble and leak. The metals used in them have stood the test of time, and the agricultural build means they are tolerant to some abuse and neglect. But when running they spurt unburnt oil and fuel from every orifice. And for two strokes, they lack that advantage of being light - the 40plus is at least 15 kilos of solid metal. Just horrible to carry too! After using one, you'll either get burnt from accidentally touching the exhaust, and covered in oil from the black runs down the exhaust, and the layer of unburnt fuel/oil coating the carb, fuel tank, gear case and block!

After all the fond, self-deluding, Libby Purves-style praise of Seagulls over the years, your remarks ring fabulously true! Tempted to quote you in other threads here, Dartmoor!

 

[Seajet]

The fact remains that outboards have no place on any dinghy other than a heavy traditional job which one hopes never to capsize or the engine will be the least of ones' worries !

Squillions of people get by in sailing dinghies by their light airs performance and carrying a paddle; if singlehanded the rudder can be offset by a line or a knee to counter the assymetric thrust paddling from one side.

While an engine on the back end is weight just where one doesn't want it, even if it survives capsizing.

 

[dartmoor]

The fact remains that outboards have no place on any dinghy other than a heavy traditional job which one hopes never to capsize or the engine will be the least of ones' worries !

Squillions of people get by in sailing dinghies by their light airs performance and carrying a paddle; if singlehanded the rudder can be offset by a line or a knee to counter the assymetric thrust paddling from one side.

While an engine on the back end is weight just where one doesn't want it, even if it survives capsizing.

Well, conditions and expertise don't always allow that in the real world. My 14ft Voyager weights 450 kilos. If you need to return to a mooring on an ebbing tide, against a strong wind, up a twisting creek, then oars would be quite demanding....so I for one am not ashamed of having an outboard

 

[maby]

The fact remains that outboards have no place on any dinghy other than a heavy traditional job which one hopes never to capsize or the engine will be the least of ones' worries !

Squillions of people get by in sailing dinghies by their light airs performance and carrying a paddle; if singlehanded the rudder can be offset by a line or a knee to counter the assymetric thrust paddling from one side.

While an engine on the back end is weight just where one doesn't want it, even if it survives capsizing.

I may have misunderstood the original post - I assumed that the OP was proposing to get an outboard that he could put onto the back of his sailing dinghy to use it as a tender to a yacht on occasion. Under those circumstances, you would not be raising the sails and capsizing should not be a risk. We've been thinking of doing the same next season - fancy having a sailing dinghy for some mucking about close to the water, but don't want to carry both that and the current tender, so looking for something that can satisfy both needs.

If he is looking for an outboard to leave on the dinghy while it is being sailed, then I fully agree with you.

 

[Greenheart]

If I ever buy a yacht, I'd like a Heron or Gull as a sailing/rowing tender...but the teenager in me would quite like a 5 or 6hp o/b too, for fun. No good reason, just for fun.

 

[Kelpie]

Just to chip in...
I occasionally take my Tohatsu 3.5 2str out with me on the Wayfarer. I've sailed with it bolted onto the back where it risks catching the mainsheet. Usually I lash it down by the mast step so that the weight is in the right place.
It's certainly nice to have it aboard, and has encouraged me to sail on lighter days and go further, but on almost every occasion I've managed to sail all the way home anyway. The Wayfarer is fairly good to row but being 6ft in the beam not ideal (or perhaps my little arms are to blame).

It would be interesting to know what kind of dinghy the OP has.

On SWMBO's dinghy, which is a Graduate, I wouldn't dream of taking an OB.

 

[Lakesailor]

That's my experience. I usually took my old Tohatsu with me in my clinker dinghy on the basis that rowing it was a bit of a chore. However, I never used it except one occasion when the destination was more important than the trip.
I even mounted it on the stern sometimes. never started it though

 

[Greenheart]

Nice pic Lakey.

It's certainly nice to have it aboard, and has encouraged me to sail on lighter days and go further, but on almost every occasion I've managed to sail all the way home anyway...it would be interesting to know what kind of dinghy the OP has.

Good point...if a dinghy isn't primarily used for racing, it's probably being treated as a modest little yacht...and what yacht goes to sea these days without some form of auxiliary?

Anything which increases the boat's available range and breadth of use (even if it ultimately isn't needed) must be a good thing. That's certainly why I bought Capt Popeye's oars. On a good day I'm very unlikely to need them, but it wouldn't be responsible crossing busy traffic in very light winds, reliant only on the sails.

I wonder what sailing men in bigger boats did, before they had an internal combustion solution to argue about when the wind failed?

 

[Lakesailor]

Nice pic Lakey.

Courtesy of Claymore Productions.

 

[Kelpie]

Nice pic Lakey.
I wonder what sailing men in bigger boats did, before they had an internal combustion solution to argue about when the wind failed?

They launched the ship's boats and towed the ship using oar power.

I used my Avon to tow my 3t boat a few weeks ago when I had to put her on a different mooring. It was actually very, very easy. Wouldn't fancy trying it with a tea clipper of course...

 

[MCL]

i now having and loving a 14ft sailing boat - mine is a voyager. I have a ten year old + Honda 2hp and have no complaints at all.

I also have a Voyager 14 foot boat and also power it with a Honda bf2 which is 10 years old. I brought it second hand from eBay and have only ever changed the oil and spark plug.

It hasn't missed a beat in the 2 years I have owned it (touch wood). It is noisy, but if it gets me home safely I don't care.

Yes oars are good, best option.....have both. That would be the safest option in a small boat but rowing in a fowl tide..... No thanks.

Cons:
Noisy

Pros:
Reliable (IMO)
Air cooled so no water impeller to care for.
Light in comparison to other 2hp OB

 

[Greenheart]

Back on electric outboards...

...just HOW mad or unhelpful would it be, to have something like a 55lb thrust Minn Kota outboard, driven not by a weighty lead acid battery which will then need charging, but by a portable little suitcase generator like Honda's EU1.0...?

View attachment 37544

...so that just as with a petrol o/b, you won't be limited to levels of charge in a dead-weight battery, but when you reach the yacht, the generator has more usefulness of its own...

...unlike the petrol o/b which just adds weight to the pushpit, until the next time it needs awkward transferring to the tender and clamping on, when it hopefully starts.

And the suitcase genny is much quieter than an o/b too. Only 13kg and a nice carry-handle. Not cheap, but at least it would get plenty of use on the yacht to justify its cost.

 

[DownWest]

I sail my 15ft Outghtred design around the Islands and waters off La Rochelle and occasionally Brittany. We also use it on the Charente (were tacking is not allowed!!) So, at sea, I put the waterproof fairing plug in the well and the oars are clipped between the prow and the gunnel. I have only used them for getting to or from the slip, if the wind is on-shore.
The Yamaha air-cooled 3.5 is used on the river. It dates from 1980, has a clutch and has started without fail on the first or second pull, even on last years fuel. Slightly noisy, but not too bad at low throttle openings. It it gives up....then I have a mint Seagull 40+ in the shed.

Friends have a Torqueedo, not happy, esp at the price/range.

DW

 

[dartmoor]

I also have a Voyager 14 foot boat and also power it with a Honda bf2 which is 10 years old. I brought it second hand from eBay and have only ever changed the oil and spark plug.

It hasn't missed a beat in the 2 years I have owned it (touch wood). It is noisy, but if it gets me home safely I don't care.

Yes oars are good, best option.....have both. That would be the safest option in a small boat but rowing in a fowl tide..... No thanks.

Cons:
Noisy

Pros:
Reliable (IMO)
Air cooled so no water impeller to care for.
Light in comparison to other 2hp OB

Ah, another fellow Voyager 14 owner - great little micro yacht. Have you discovered the yahoo group yet?

 

[dartmoor]

Back on electric outboards...

...just HOW mad or unhelpful would it be, to have something like a 55lb thrust Minn Kota outboard, driven not by a weighty lead acid battery which will then need charging, but by a portable little suitcase generator like Honda's EU1.0...?

View attachment 37544



...so that just as with a petrol o/b, you won't be limited to levels of charge in a dead-weight battery, but when you reach the yacht, the generator has more usefulness of its own...

...unlike the petrol o/b which just adds weight to the pushpit, until the next time it needs awkward transferring to the tender and clamping on, when it hopefully starts.

And the suitcase genny is much quieter than an o/b too. Only 13kg and a nice carry-handle. Not cheap, but at least it would get plenty of use on the yacht to justify its cost.

Looks a lot of hassle to go electric...wouldn't a Torqeedo be better if you wanted to go that route?

 

[parbuckle]

I also have a Voyager 14 foot boat and also power it with a Honda bf2 which is 10 years old. I brought it second hand from eBay and have only ever changed the oil and spark plug.

It hasn't missed a beat in the 2 years I have owned it (touch wood). It is noisy, but if it gets me home safely I don't care.

Yes oars are good, best option.....have both. That would be the safest option in a small boat but rowing in a fowl tide..... No thanks.

Cons:
Noisy

Pros:
Reliable (IMO)
Air cooled so no water impeller to care for.
Light in comparison to other 2hp OB

When rowing in a fowl tide make sure you feather your oars.