My boat has been repossessed and I've also been handed the mortgage to pay

It's only for boats with finance.

There's already Full Part One registration if they want a partial (but very big) register of boat owners.

What's the difference?
 
Sorry for making you wait

I'm back. Sorry but I am overwhelmed by the response. Thank you. I realise that this seems crazy, but it is true. Some of the things that don't add up probably are as a result of me not wanting to ramble on and on thinking that it would switch readers off, so I tried to only put down the key bits. I was very keen to see if this had happened to anyone else or if I am a one-off as this would help my case if I am the first.

The case was heard on October 9th 2009, Queen's bench division, Admiralty court, 2009 Folio 767. The order was: 1. judgement for the claimant in default of acknowledgement of service or defence in the sum of £26,383.13 including interest. 2. The defendant to pay the claimant's costs of this application and the claim. 3. The ship to be appraised and sold by the Admiralty Marshal.

In case you are asking 'why did he wait till now if the judgement was Oct 09? the reason that I have done nothing until now is rather complex. Firstly, I heard nothing from the bank's solicitors until March 2010. I had stupidly assumed that my HPI check and blank registry search would be sufficient to win the case. Also, if you have been inviolved with the high court (my first time) you will know that they make absolutely no contact with you. Everything comes via the claimant's solicitors. Secondly, the boat bought by me for £17500 in 2006 was worth minus trailer 7-8k max. In addition the case pretty much coincided with my divorce timewise and my wife got the boat in the financial settlement. So my interest in it had already diminished.

If you look at point 1 on the order, you will see that, as far as I can tell, by me filling out and signing the 'acknowledgement of service' and signing it saying that I was the owner of the ship, I appear to have become in the eyes of the judge, synonymous with the defaulting borrower. A lesson to be learned I guess and thanks for those who suggested as much.

I found this site however, by googling the name Shizelle which is apparently a test case that the bank are going to use when I contest their statutory demand. There's tonnes on it and also an article in the independent 1994.

The law is really clear and I may well be in real trouble. There is no obligation on any bank to register anywhere its interest in an unregistered ship (mine's unregistered). But they are entitled to seize that vessel. So if you do buy an unregistered vessel you are in fact buying totally blind and have no way of knowing if there will be a letter on the mat with the worst possible news. See the Shizelle for evidence of this as it went to High Court and the owners lost.

I am really grateful to those who suggested going after the defaulting borrower as I feel this could well be a great help - even if only in mitigation. If I can serve him with a statutory demand - which I reckon should be straightforward - then even if the court rules against me, they will have to rule against the crook who sold the boat without paying off his mortgage. Logically, he would then pay me and I would pass that to the bank. It's a possibility.

Also thanks to Mike for the advice about the loan size. This guives real hope as the loan was £23000 which Mike says is a personal loan (unsecured) and so cannot be attached to the vessel. My solicitor thinks this could be a real way forward.

My boat insurance was no use in this however. As my boat had neither been in an accident or stolen, they did not want to know.

Once this is all over, I will be back out there and will get a nice little replacement - probably second hand again. But if that boat is unregistered, I will be asking for an insurance policy that will cover me from any loss due to the emergence of marine finance and also I will ask for the legal cover to specify legal fees relating to any attempt to repossess my boat from a third party. I recommend anyone out there does the same or tells us what they have in place to secure against this happening to them.

If anyone wants any more details filled in, I'll be only too pleaased to write more on it. If any of this stops someone else's dream being shattered and spoiling what should be a real pleasure, then it has some value at least.

thanks for a great forum. I feel better than I have done for a long while.

Duncan
 
Duncan I am sorry to here your story and hope it works out for you in the end.
I have been after a boat for quite a while now and even made offers on a few and surveyed one.
Now I'm nervous about spending a large sum of money(for me) for something that i may not even end up owning.
Do you know if going through a broker is an assurance of ownership and there being no debt?
And where can you buy insurance against this problem?
 
epervier said:
Yes, a complete disaster for boat owners and a dream come true for the state,

Imagine, if you will, the cost of the quango to work out how it will work, how many civil servant jobs it would make, their pensions,regulation,enforcement, risk assessment,more rules enforced with fines and worse, all at tax payers cost.

Whist the idea seems attractive in practice, like anything to do with big brother would you really want it?

be careful what you wish for.
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Don't be silly, no need for all of that. Just make it a requirement that all financial interests in a boat be recorded with HPI. If the lender doesn't record the interest he has no claim on the boat. If the buyer doesn't check with HPI, tough, he loses the boat. Simples.
 
Thanks for providing more background. However, the additional information begs more questions than it answers.

There is not a lot of point discussing it here, or even asking for specific advice because it is clearly not straightforward. You definitely need expert legal advice - and tell the lawyer everything!

Best of luck.
 
Duncan, thanks for the reply and sorry to have doubted you but there's some odd fish on the Internet!

Deeply sorry to hear of your situation. It's one that I'm acutely aware of the possibility of with regards to buying a boat and, as I've said many times, the general head in sand laissez faire attitude that surrounds this astounds me.

Last thought as I'm just dashing out, you say the boat now belongs to your ex wife? Surely therefore, just as the debt followed the boat to you from the original debtor, as you've moved it on to your ex wife it's now her issue to deal with any liens surrounding the craft? I'm no legal eagle so I don't know quite how the technicalities work, but the principle is there.
 
PaulGooch said:
Don't be silly, no need for all of that. Just make it a requirement that all financial interests in a boat be recorded with HPI. If the lender doesn't record the interest he has no claim on the boat. If the buyer doesn't check with HPI, tough, he loses the boat. Simples.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. It's not complicated and I'm staggered that anyone could object to a simple system that could hugely assist in avoiding the sort of issue that the original poster now finds himself in.
 
russ said:
Duncan I am sorry to here your story and hope it works out for you in the end.
I have been after a boat for quite a while now and even made offers on a few and surveyed one.
Now I'm nervous about spending a large sum of money(for me) for something that i may not even end up owning.
Do you know if going through a broker is an assurance of ownership and there being no debt?
And where can you buy insurance against this problem?
Click to expand...

I don't think buying through a broker is a guarantee. As far as i can see, and it's by no means foolproof, the best thing to have is the original purchase invoice for the boat (not a copy or scan) and any subsequent bills of sale for the boat. They should give a complete chain of ownership.
 
duncan1859 said:
The case was heard on October 9th 2009, Queen's bench division, Admiralty court, 2009 Folio 767. The order was: 1. judgement for the claimant in default of acknowledgement of service or defence in the sum of £26,383.13 including interest. 2. The defendant to pay the claimant's costs of this application and the claim. 3. The ship to be appraised and sold by the Admiralty Marshal.
Click to expand...

Duncan, sorry to hear of your plight.

I'm with NickH on this. I do not see how another person's debt can become yours the way you describe. Are you sure you have read the judgement correctly? I think point 1 of the judgement is in favour of the claimant (the bank) against the person who originally borrowed the loan, not you. So I am pretty confident that you do not owe money to the bank. Put the full judgment up on a server if you want us to read it

Nevertheless, the bank may have security over the boat and points 2 and 3 confirm you pay their costs for their application to seize the boat and the boat may now be sold to (part) pay off the debt

So, your argument with the bank is limited, I think, to whether they can take your boat. It's not about you having to pay them money.

If you want to appeal, you need a good solicitor, not just any from the yellow pages, who can unravel the quality of the bank's charge of the boat, and make a defence in the form of imperfections in the bank's charge. It could be that the bank's charge is quite flawed and that they've done/omitted to do things, with the result that they're now estopped from seizing the boat. That would be par for the course with consumer finance lending sub £20k, which is often handled by call centre people. The kind of clever lawyer you need alas costs money and none of us here can comment on the chances of success becuase we dont have enough facts. Frankly if the bank did a good job when it made the loan originally and boat is only worth £8k it might be better to put this down to experience and not appeal. But if the bank's security is badly structured an appeal might be a slam dunk. No-one can give a view on that without reading the full HC judgement and the bank's security papers (which must have formed part of the evidence, or otherwise can be discovered)

Good luck anyway
 
russ said:
Duncan I am sorry to here your story and hope it works out for you in the end.
I have been after a boat for quite a while now and even made offers on a few and surveyed one.
Now I'm nervous about spending a large sum of money(for me) for something that i may not even end up owning.
Do you know if going through a broker is an assurance of ownership and there being no debt?
And where can you buy insurance against this problem?
Click to expand...

There can never be 100% certainty, because you can never protect totally against fraudulent activity.

However, despite all the hot air expended here on the subject, there is no evidence that the risk is high, nor are there many recorded cases. Thousands of boats change hands every year without any problems. A broker is expected to carry out the checks with the owner when he takes on the boat, but he is not responsible to the buyer. You need to arm yourself with a good knowledge of the process - the RYA has extensive information on buying and selling boats, including a very handy little book.

With this level of knowledge you should be able to pick up if something is obviously not right and know the questions to ask and documents to see. If you do not get satisfactory answers thenseek professional advice if you want to go further - or walk away if you feel unhappy.

No, you cannot insure, partly because the risk is so small an insurer would not know what premium to charge.
 
Duncan,

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Can you tell me, did you buy the boat via a broker or privately?

Can you list the title documentation that you were given when you purchased the boat. (Not specific names and address') For example, how many bills of sale from one owner to the next? An original invoice from when the boat was first new? A builders certificate? A certificate of conformity? etc etc

Did the previous owners mortgage start at £22,000? Had he paid some of that off?

All the best.
 
ari said:
Last thought as I'm just dashing out, you say the boat now belongs to your ex wife? Surely therefore, just as the debt followed the boat to you from the original debtor, as you've moved it on to your ex wife it's now her issue to deal with any liens surrounding the craft? I'm no legal eagle so I don't know quite how the technicalities work, but the principle is there.
Click to expand...

I thought about that, but that would only stand any chance or helping if the ownership of the boat changed before the bank instigated investigations. If it changed hands after then, they court would see it as a ploy. IMO.
 
duncan1859 said:
Secondly, the boat bought by me for £17500 in 2006 was worth minus trailer 7-8k max.
Click to expand...

You mean it was worth 7-8k when you bought it for 17.5k in 2006, or it's worth that now? If 2006, then why did you overpay by so much? If it's only worth that now, then a part of your loss is depreciation, which can affect any boat buyer, although the bigger part would still be the adoption of the outstanding debt.

Is there something you're not telling us? If there's a charge on the boat, and you bought it in good faith, then the mortgager would be able to repossess the boat, but they can't make you liable to repay the mortgage, that would be ridiculous. I can't see that stating that you believe you are the owner of the boat on the service document would have that effect. There has to something more to this.

Did the prosecution claim that you had colluded with the seller to defraud them? There must be something in the judgement that states why you have become liable for the debt.
 
Nick_H said:
You mean it was worth 7-8k when you bought it for 17.5k in 2006, or it's worth that now? If 2006, then why did you overpay by so much? If it's only worth that now, then a part of your loss is depreciation, which can affect any boat buyer, although the bigger part would still be the adoption of the outstanding debt.

Is there something you're not telling us? If there's a charge on the boat, and you bought it in good faith, then the mortgager would be able to repossess the boat, but they can't make you liable to repay the mortgage, that would be ridiculous. I can't see that stating that you believe you are the owner of the boat on the service document would have that effect. There has to something more to this.

Did the prosecution claim that you had colluded with the seller to defraud them? There must be something in the judgement that states why you have become liable for the debt.
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Exactly. It seems to me OP is misunderstanding point #1 of the judgment, which (per his quote above) does not say HE is liable for the debt, so I think that whole aspect is a red herring
 
jfm said:
Exactly. It seems to me OP is misunderstanding point #1 of the judgment, which (per his quote above) does not say HE is liable for the debt, so I think that whole aspect is a red herring
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Not according to the results of quick Google search, amongst which i found this site :

http://www.angloeuromarine.com/what-do-first-title

Of particular note is this part :

under maritime law any boat carries its debts with it and there could be an undischarged mortgage or other lien which would become your liability upon purchasing the boat
Click to expand...

Lots more info by searching for "maritime law boat debt"
 
PaulGooch said:
Of particular note is this part
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I think you're reading too much into that sentence you quoted. It was quite a colloqial bit of writing.

If I have a £17.5k boat (the exact amount isn't relevant) and I borrow £1m from a mate, secured on the boat, then sell the boat to you, then I defualt on the debt, you do not have to pay my mate £1m. Yoiu might well lose the boat to him, but that's different from you owing him £1m
 
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