My boat has been repossessed and I've also been handed the mortgage to pay

[Jim@sea]

Perhaps "the cheat" who bought the boat in the first place perhaps failed to disclose material facts regarding his financial history which if known would have resulting in the Bank refusing the morgage in the first place. Which would perhaps result in the original loan being "Invalid" . It seems highly likely that this person will have other bad debt issues which the bank failed to spot. I would do a credit check on this person and find a solicitor to take this person to court. I would send him a bill for the outstanding and although it costs you money I would start "Bankruptcy" proceedings as this would Preempt" him from going for an IVA.
I think that the Bank were very lucky when they wrote to you in 2009 saying that the Panther had money owing on it as a few people I know would have said "What Panther"
especially as it was un-registered. You were a soft target, they won because you defended yourself. Now you are going to have to throw money at the problem. So the answer is drop the seller in it, get the mortgage debt cancelled. Dont forget to get your solicitor to notify the Bank that you are tacking action and any attempt by them to dispose of his clients boat will be met with a restraining order. So run the above past a solicitor and see what he thinks. Good luck.

 

[Nick_H]

You say you handled your own defense, so are you sure you've understood the judgement correctly. It can't be right that you have to return the boat AND pay off the mortgage, you would be paying for the same thing twice. IMO there's also no way you can assume liability for someone elses mortgage without specifically signing to do so. Something doesn't add up here, so read the judgement carefully, or maybe get citizens advice to explain it to you.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought that a boat had to be part one registered to enact a marine mortgage and any unregistered boats or even part three registrations, could only be loaned upon by hire purchase. I would get legal representation and go back to the court and ask for the mortgage to be overturned. Do not make yourself bancrupt. It's not productive will cost you £450 and BOS will still have a mortgage and first dibs on your house. Get hold of the original documentation. If the "Marine Mortgage", turns out to be a form of HP, you are in the clear. Pay the £450 to a debt collector and send him round to ask politely for you money. The best debt collectors for this type of job, usually do contract work for drug dealers. They work on commission 50% of what they recover.

 

[Jim@sea]

Further thoughts on this. You have been subjected to Fraud. When you say the boat was "Un-registered" how do you know it wasent registered and the person you bought it off removed the registration number, changed its name and "hey presto" its an Un-registered boat, put it up for sale and nobody would know. After all registration in this country is only voluntary, and you can have the same boat registered more than once in a different name. And look at how many cars are cloned, if the person who you bought your boat off was really bent "Un-registering" and re-naming it before he put it up for sale would be childs play.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You say you handled your own defense, so are you sure you've understood the judgement correctly. Something doesn't add up here, so read the judgement carefully, or maybe get citizens advice to explain it to you.

I was thinking along the same lines. There's something missing here. The judgement will already be public (online), so it would be really useful, and giving no secrets away, for Forumites to see the link & read it. Some of us might be able to learn something, other's might be able to offer much more specific advice with all the facts to hand.

 

[Jim@sea]

SORRY I DID NOT MEAN THAT YOU MAKE YOURSELF BANKRUPT:: I meant the person you bought the boat off. I always understood that if someone owes you money say £500 and they could not pay you, they were Insolvent, and a person who is owed money can apply to have the person who owes them money made Bankrupt, aparrently it can cost £1000. I was going to do it to a tenant who owed me a lot of rent, but I was soft and did not do it.

 

[STEVEDUNSTABLE]

I bought an unregistered panther sportscruiser in 2006 for £17500. did an HPI check and a search of the small ships regster. All clear.

In 2009, the bank of scotland contacted me to say they have a marine mortgage on the boat. I challenged this with my searches o they took the matter to the high court and won. I did my own defence as I felt the boat wasn't worth the price of QC's.

I presumed that if they won they would be entitled to the boat, but that is not all. The judge has ruled that the entire mortgage and interest is now my liability. The previous owner who did not mention the mrtgage, now owes £27500 and this debt has been passed to me. So I have lost the boat and the cheat who ripped me off is sitting pretty 10 miles away while I now have to pay his debt. The bank have started bankruptcy proceedings.

Has this kind of thing happened to anyone else?

very sorry to read of your plight.. im sorry i cant help legaly except to echo what others have posted and say get proffessional help..........that said it just goes to show how much the lunatics now run the asylam and that crime does pay LEGALY !!!!!!!!!

 

[PaulGooch]

So, i can get a mortgage on a £1m boat, sell the boat and pocket the 1m and the new "owner" is liable for the debt. Cushty, where do i sign up ?

Something doesn't add up here.

 

[volvopaul]

So, i can get a mortgage on a £1m boat, sell the boat and pocket the 1m and the new "owner" is liable for the debt. Cushty, where do i sign up ?

Something doesn't add up here.

Im up for that one too, beats working for a living................... anyone else interested????

 

[burgundyben]

I dont think we've got the full story.

 

[ari]

Couple of thoughts:

1. It seems odd that someone would post such a thread and then not check back in and reply to answers given.

2. It seems odd that the finance company apparently want both their money back AND the boat (although possibly this is a mistake and they are simply arresting the boat until their debt is settled, which is normal practice)

2. Just to clarify, a boat does not need to be Full Part One registered for a finance company to have a lien.

3. Even if it were, it's the easiest thing in the world to simply remove the Carving and Marking notice and change the name.

4. I argued long and hard in another thread on this subject that what's needed is a change in the law and a central register upon which all boats must be logged in order for a finance company to have the right to "follow" the boat for the debt should it be sold on. Such a register should include hull, engine and gearbox numbers in order to make it much harder for its inclusion on the register to be hidden. I was loudly shouted down as apparently having no reliable way to ensure there is no outstanding finance (and thus becoming liable for it) "isn't a problem". Well if the original poster is genuine, perhaps those same people would like to explain just how it isn't a problem to him..?

This was the original thread:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219476

Huge commiserations to the original poster if you're genuine mate, it's everyone's worst nightmare on purchasing a boat (or would be if people were actually aware of the risks).

 

[BrendanS]

You may have a valid point, but you always seem to alienate everyone, so they wouldn't agree even if you did have a point?

 

[Tranona]

Well if the original poster is genuine, perhaps those same people would like to explain just how it isn't a problem to him..?

QUOTE]

Ari - Thats the problem. There are too many unexplained aspects in the original post to take it seriously.

Lets see if the OP comes back with the full story before jumping to conclusions - never mind claiming that is a justification for your position on the subject.

Long winded way of saying probably a troll - but who knows!

 

[timbartlett]

1. It seems odd that someone would post such a thread and then not check back in and reply to answers given.

He's new to the forum, and both his posts are on the same subject, and both on Friday evening. Are you really suggesting that because he hasn't come back the very next day he's probably a troll?

BTW, as there seem to be contradictory ideas about whether Part 1 registration is required or not, http://www.lombard.co.uk/assets/marine/powerboats/your-questions-answered.aspx might help:-

Must I register the boat?
Unless you keep your vessel outside UK waters, or we provide a particularly large level of finance, we do not normally require the boat to be fully British registered under Part 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act.

 

[Marsupial]

BTW, as there seem to be contradictory ideas about whether Part 1 registration is required or not, http://www.lombard.co.uk/assets/marine/powerboats/your-questions-answered.aspx might help:-

I agree with that, just been thinking about my first new boat bought in 2000 that was SSR and the loan was "unsecured" there was no way we could/or they could prove ownership of the boat; although there was a bill of sale, there was no interest registered with the MCA, our second new boat bought in 2002 (I know I know!) had to be Part 1 registered "because of the value of the boat" - not the value of the mortgage which was in fact less. BUT on the second boat an interest was registered with the MCA, this came off when the mortgage was paid up.

On reflection the whole thing smacks of the reasons behind the "credit crunch" and deals being done in the past lacking due dilligence. As others have said IF thie OP is a real case it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

 

[ari]

He's new to the forum, and both his posts are on the same subject, and both on Friday evening. Are you really suggesting that because he hasn't come back the very next day he's probably a troll?

BTW, as there seem to be contradictory ideas about whether Part 1 registration is required or not, http://www.lombard.co.uk/assets/marine/powerboats/your-questions-answered.aspx might help:-

Must I register the boat?
Unless you keep your vessel outside UK waters, or we provide a particularly large level of finance, we do not normally require the boat to be fully British registered under Part 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act.

You are rather missing the point there. Just because they don't require you to register the boat doesn't mean they therefore do not have a right to it (even if sold on) should the loan not be paid back.

UNDER UK MARITIME LAW IF MONEY IS LOANED FOR A BOAT THEN THE DEBT CAN FOLLOW THE BOAT EVEN IF IT'S SOLD ON. That's the crux of the problem when there is no effective way of finding out.

Full Part One registration is neither here nor there!

Incidentally, many finance companies that lend on unregistered boats insist on holding on to the title documents (previous Bills of Sale and the one to the new owner/borrower) because in theory the boat cannot be sold on without them. They return them once the debt is settled.

Cue a slightly nervous feeling from all those who bought on the basis of a Bill of Sale from the seller only, after not asking for previous paperwork/accepting a plausible excuse. (It's a nonsense anyway as Bills of Sale are downloadable straight from the MCA web site, it'd take someone ten minutes to knock up a bit of history if that were a sticking point in a sale).

 

[ari]

You may have a valid point, but you always seem to alienate everyone, so they wouldn't agree even if you did have a point?

An odd response, but whatever your feelings it doesn't change the facts.

The original poster could well be genuine, and it could happen to anyone.

Whilst there will never be a foolproof system, there could very easily be a far far more effective one than present.

Imagine if there were a central register. The original poster could have cross referenced the boat name, hull number, engine serial numbers and gearbox serial numbers and had any of them flagged up (ie if the name had been changed a serial number would have sparked a query) he'd have been able to identify the boat as having a financial charge against it.

Now sure, the seller could have ground off all the numbers, but then you simply wouldn't buy the boat would you?

 

[ari]

QUOTE]

Ari - Thats the problem. There are too many unexplained aspects in the original post to take it seriously.

Lets see if the OP comes back with the full story before jumping to conclusions - never mind claiming that is a justification for your position on the subject.

Long winded way of saying probably a troll - but who knows!

Again, whether he's genuine or not, the situation he presents is one that has happened and no doubt will again.

Hell of a gamble isn't it? Might be relatively low risk, but bloody high stakes!

It just staggers me that no one is much bothered. It's uppermost in my mind when I buy a boat and I'm extremely concious of the lack of any remotely sensible system to protect myself from it.

Perhaps I'm just not rich enough

 

[Nick_H]

On another post about the same subject the OP writes:

"The judge ruled that not only were the bank entitled to my boat, I am now also liable for all of the borowers debt! So I bought the boat for £17500, the previous owner had a mortgage on it for £22000 and his total debt currently stands at £27600 (which is now passed onto me plus the interest standing currently £5.81 per week too). The bank have started bankruptcy proceedings against me and so I have finally employed solicitors who although they feel it is grossly unfair, do not see how I can challenge a high court order. has this happened to anyone else out there?"

I can only guess that he has somehow bought into an unlimited company/sole trader/partnership arrangement that owns the boat, as that's the only way I can see that he would take on the sellers debts? It would be interesting to get some more info from the OP, but the important thing for him is that he gets some professional legal advice, so it's good to hear that he has now appointed a solicitor.

 

[epervier]

Imagine if there were a central register.

Yes, a complete disaster for boat owners and a dream come true for the state,

Imagine, if you will, the cost of the quango to work out how it will work, how many civil servant jobs it would make, their pensions,regulation,enforcement, risk assessment,more rules enforced with fines and worse, all at tax payers cost.

Whist the idea seems attractive in practice, like anything to do with big brother would you really want it?

be careful what you wish for.