Musings on anchor trip line

[GHA]

Yes, I used to do that. Had about 30 feet of 5mm line lashed by twine to the anchor chain. However it did not work well with the gypsy, perhaps a thinner dynemma line would be better nowadays. Otherwise it worked well and no problems with floats or tangled rope.

Thanks. 5mm is the smallest I have so stuck with that . Outrageously strong though, 3.8T! I'm wondering if it might work if the dyneema was attached to the top of the link of the chain which doesn't touch the gypsy. Means the chain needs to be always the same orientation though, not always the case even if you want it. Living on the hook it's a bit tricky to test

 

[Neeves]

The links passing through the gypsy are orientated the same way every time, no matter what twists are in the chain (between gypsy and anchor) - unless your chain jumps on the gypsy. However for your chain to jump on the gypsy and move one link to a new orientation suggests a fundamental issue (which I am sure you do not have).

Consequently if you ensure that there are no twists in the chain and anchor, when the anchor is on the bow roller, and you identify which link has its length on the outer side of the gypsy and slowly lower the anchor cable tying the dyneema to the outside link, only, then its no more difficult for a liveaboard than anyone else (unless you never move). In fact as a liveaboard you will arrive at an answer far quicker than most.

The problem is if there are any twists in the chain once deployed, very possible, then the dyneema will twist round the chain and it will be very difficult to pull the anchor out backwards. You cannot easily remove the twists (in fact i'd think it impossible) so you would have to unravel the dyneema from the chain, easier in the clear waters of the Med than some murky anchorage elsewhere.

If there was an easy solution - it would be practised regularly.

Jonathan

 

[bbg]

You're completely missing the point. The cable tie takes little load, it keeps the chain in line with the shank, the load gets applied when your anchor is fouled, you motor up on it, and pull when the chain is vertical.

You're completely missing the point.

You propose installing a weak point that will break when you want it to, in order to pull the anchor out backwards. You are relying on it NOT ever breaking when you don't want it to. If you expect it to break when the anchor is stuck and you want it to break, why would it not break when under anchoring loads?

So - what happens if the cable tie fails when you don't want it to? Will your boat be safe?

 

[Neeves]

I had always understood the technique mentioned by Gladys as:

Shackle chain to anchor as per normal. Run chain along shank to crown with light cable ties. Use a stronger cable tie at crown. Run chain back to shackle, attach with stronger cable tie.

For anchoring under normal conditions the stronger cable tie at the shackle is the one that is being used - but in the extreme, anchor stuck, it will break when loaded. You then manouvre the yacht such that the chain is pulling the anchor out backwards, so less tension on cable tie at crown. Hey Presto.

Personally I'm not keen, cable ties are not that reliable but more importantly you have the excess weight of the chain in the wrong place on the anchor - which to me suggests the anchor will not set correctly. The issue then would be not an irretrievable anchor but a dragging anchor.

If I had doubts (and no better solution is suggested) - I would stick to the buoyed float, carefully marked. "This is the anchor buoy to the cat anchored near you DO NOT TOUCH' - marked on a bit of board. However as we so seldom see other yachts where we cruise its not a major issue.

Jonathan

Edit I had also read somewhere of shackling to the crown and then using a cable tie at the shackle point (I assumed it was some sort of editing error), but as Richard, below, and BBG, above, suggest this simply cannot be workable (is unsafe, for the reasons outlined by BBG) and still adds the weight of the chain to the shank.

close edit

 

[RichardS]

You're completely missing the point.

You propose installing a weak point that will break when you want it to, in order to pull the anchor out backwards. You are relying on it NOT ever breaking when you don't want it to. If you expect it to break when the anchor is stuck and you want it to break, why would it not break when under anchoring loads?

So - what happens if the cable tie fails when you don't want it to? Will your boat be safe?

Ah .... now the light dawns over my head.

The Gladys "cable-tie" idea is not the traditional "cable-tie" method but something a bit unusual. I must saying, now that I understand what Gladys is actually proposing, like BBG I don't think it is workable and too prone to the cable tie failing during a blow whilst at anchor and the anchor then being pulled in the wrong direction and freed.

Richard

 

[GHA]

..... and you identify which link has its length on the outer side of the gypsy and slowly lower the anchor cable tying the dyneema to the outside link, only, then its no more difficult for a liveaboard than anyone else

Easy that is if you have a big bay to anchor in with no tides, wind , other boats or riverbanks to hit. Not to simple when you need to get the anchor down fast to make sure you're in the spot you chose.

 

[Neeves]

We sympathise - its why we do not go to the Whitsundays anymore.

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

We sympathise - its why we do not go to the Whitsundays anymore.

It is indeed awful living on the hook round here in the middle of November...

 

[noelex]

If you need to use a trip line (they are a bit antisocial so are better avoided if possible), it is worth installing a weak link in the system. I use a cable tie.

The main purpose of the weak link is to break if the trip line gets caught around the rudder, prop or boarding ladder. This happens not infrequently. If caught, the trip line without a weak link will pull out even a well set anchor. The pull is close to 1:1 with the pull from the crown. Most commonly it is the boat deploying the anchor that will catch the trip line during a wind change, but it can be another boat within the swing circle.

The weak link also removes the problem of another boat mistaking the anchor buoy for a mooring. If they pick up the float, the cable tie just below the surface will snap.

If the trip line needs to be used in anger, the weak link needs to bypassed. If you leave a little slack in the trip line rope it is possible to attach a stronger rope below the weak link, enabling the anchor to pulled out backwards.

Be wary of a trip line and float without a weak link in conditions of wind (or tide) reversal. It is surprisingly easy to catch the trip line especially between the rudder and hull.

 

[Poignard]

Isn't one of the options to secure chain to anchor at the spade/plough/fluke end of the anchor and then cable tie the chain to the normal attachment point? Anchor stuck, cable tie breaks...

From "The Yachtmaster's Guide and Coaster's Companion" by Frank G.G. Carr, 4th edition, 1944, p363:

"Q. What is meant by 'skowing' an anchor?
A. Bending the cable with a clove hitch round the crown, as a buoy rope is bent, and taking the standing part to the ring, to which it is stopped with spunyarn. In the event of of the anchor getting foul of some obstruction, if a great vertical strain be put upon the warp, the stopping will part, and the anchor can then be lifted up by the crown."

 

[lw395]

From "The Yachtmaster's Guide and Coaster's Companion" by Frank G.G. Carr, 4th edition, 1944, p363:

"Q. What is meant by 'skowing' an anchor?
A. Bending the cable with a clove hitch round the crown, as a buoy rope is bent, and taking the standing part to the ring, to which it is stopped with spunyarn. In the event of of the anchor getting foul of some obstruction, if a great vertical strain be put upon the warp, the stopping will part, and the anchor can then be lifted up by the crown."

Which shows that bad ideas are not always even original.
People do this when they are not relying on the anchor for safety, e.g. when wreck fishing, where unseating the anchor is an inconvenience not a danger.

 

[Gottenhimfella]

I've had success with this method but motored past the anchor after dropping the loop and then a fair bit of my anchor chain. This allowed the anchor to be pulled clear fairly easily and should work with most types, not just a CQR. I still keep a chain loop for use with my Bruce pattern anchor.

I did use a tripping line once because the pilot book said that the ground was very foul in the area. A local speed boat tried to use it as a mooring almost immediately. We left it down as there was no room for any other boats to anchor nearby and the wind had died completely. After a quick shopping trip ashore we returned to find that the wind had returned from the opposite direction and pushed the bows past the anchor. The boat was now being held by the tripping line around the rudder. Easy to fix but have avoided a tripping line since then. We remained in the bay for about a week and never once saw another boat use a tripping line in this so called badly fouled area.

I still might be tempted to use a more distinctive buoy and tripping line if circumstances required it. I have thought it might be worth feeding a line through the eye in the buoy and connecting it to a lead weight. The weight should pull in any slack and make the buoy sit closer to the anchor with the line pretty much straight up. Less chance of wrapping the keel, rudder or propeller. Only a thought as I've never tried it out.

I've given a bit of thought to the various problems, and so far this is my best shot for someone who routinely risks a foul anchor, but needs a secure tripping system.

The "shuttlecock" is fabricated from stainless steel rod of suitable diameter, two rings and four straights. Only the bottom ring needs to be strong, and the top ring should be a small bush or bullseye, maybe 10mm inside diameter.

The idea is that to retrieve a fouled anchor, a wire "snare" noose (perhaps a loop of 7/19 rigging wire with a big talurit eye at one end and a smaller one at the other, and perhaps a big shackle at the bottom of the loop to weight it down) is dropped over the bleach bottle and lowered down to the shuttlecock on a strong warp. The loop's "natural" diameter should be big enough that it definitely passes around the shuttlecock, but no bigger. With the loop resting in the crook of the dropper line from the smaller float, that float is then pulled down (by retrieving the bleach bottle float) and swallowed up within the shuttlecock. The latter is pulled upwards a bit to encourage the loop to pass below it, then the warp is hauled on to tighten the loop below the "strong metal ring", snaring the chain labelled as 1/4" G70 (I would go bigger on an anchor weighing in at over 25-30kg).

The warp is now used to pull from a suitable direction to free the anchor.

I probably wouldn't personally bother with this for an anchor where more ad-hoc methods (I particularly like the "chain in the middle of a warp" suggested by vyv_cox) had proven to work well, unless there was a strong benefit in having a marker buoy showing me where the anchor was. To give one example: it might discourage others from dropping their anchor on, or close to mine. This rig, like Mistroma's lead sinker (which I do recall dreaming up years ago but never tried) does have the nice feature of self-adjusting even in an area with big tides, the line to the single buoy at the surface being kept taut. And in the case of my proposed rig, if a prop does grab the line, it will probably at least winch the small float into the shuttlecock before the line snaps. You can then grapple for the shuttlecock if the anchor is foul, and a bleach bottle is no great loss.

Another advantage of this system is that the upwards force on the anchor is minimal, somewhat less than twice the buoyancy of the SMALLER float plus the buoyancy of the line.

Thinking more about vyv_cox's idea, it would also be excellent for rusty ring-bolts on wharves, particularly massive wrought iron ones which have corroded into something resembling a stale croissant. ON EDIT: It preserves the option to slip and run, in situations which might quickly become untenable, without leaving any gear behind. In that situation I have previously cow-hitched a short webbing sling through the ringbolt, and then doubled the shoreline through the sling. This means (in an emergency) either slipping the rope and leaving the webbing for someone else (not a bad option) or in an absolute firedrill situation putting a sharp knife through the webbing (with gratifyingly rapid results if it's under significant load)

 

[TQA]

Gosh all this complicated stuff is making my poor brain hurt.

For years now I have used the simple single line zip tied with skinny tie to the chain. I only bother doing this in places like English Harbor Antigua or Chagouramous Trinidad wher the bottom is known to be foul. I can only remember two occasions when I had to use the tripping line and it broke free from the chain without any drama. Both times I was able to free the anchor saving me the cost and hassle of getting a diver out to do the job.

 

[tudorsailor]

Gosh all this complicated stuff is making my poor brain hurt.

For years now I have used the simple single line zip tied with skinny tie to the chain. I only bother doing this in places like English Harbor Antigua or Chagouramous Trinidad wher the bottom is known to be foul. I can only remember two occasions when I had to use the tripping line and it broke free from the chain without any drama. Both times I was able to free the anchor saving me the cost and hassle of getting a diver out to do the job.

How do you do this? Do you attach the line to the anchor and then pay out the chain fixing an occasional cable tie as it deploys? I assume that when you get to the end of the trip line, you attach it to the chain, and then continue letting the rest of the chain out to get the right amount of scope?
What do you do when retrieving your chain and anchor? Do you disconnect the line from the chain as it comes back or do you leave it attached? If the latter, doesn't that interfere with the windlass?
Thanks
TudorSailor

 

[TQA]

How do you do this? Do you attach the line to the anchor and then pay out the chain fixing an occasional cable tie as it deploys? I assume that when you get to the end of the trip line, you attach it to the chain, and then continue letting the rest of the chain out to get the right amount of scope?
What do you do when retrieving your chain and anchor? Do you disconnect the line from the chain as it comes back or do you leave it attached? If the latter, doesn't that interfere with the windlass?
Thanks
TudorSailor

I flake the chain on deck and attach the line with 4 or 5 ties. If I know I am reanchoring in foul ground I leave the line on and the electric windlass retrieves it with only the occasional jump. If I have no further need of the line it is just a case of snipping the ties and coiling the line as the chain comes in.

My tripping line is a bit of Dyneema about 60 ft long.

 

[Neeves]

TQA,

That's quite a long tripping line - or do you need that length so that you account for possible depth of water plus freeboard plus getting the line to a winch? I assume its 'simple' braided dyneema, no cover and maybe 5mm?

To me your way is certainly one of the simplest.

The downside, that I can think of, are twists due to wind/tide (then maybe a buoyed line might be better) but it does not have the downside of getting round anyone's prop or being picked up as a mooring.

Jonathan

 

[alahol2]

I've only used a trip line a couple of times. I used a decoy duck as the float (because it was the smallest float I had on board). Nobody is going to try to pick that as a mooring.
But I suppose someone may be tempted to earn points for running it down.

 

[noelex]

Gosh all this complicated stuff is making my poor brain hurt.

For years now I have used the simple single line zip tied with skinny tie to the chain. I only bother doing this in places like English Harbor Antigua or Chagouramous Trinidad wher the bottom is known to be foul. I can only remember two occasions when I had to use the tripping line and it broke free from the chain without any drama. Both times I was able to free the anchor saving me the cost and hassle of getting a diver out to do the job.

This is a common system that has advantages such as keeping the trip line away from props, but if anchoring in foul ground it is not quite as reliable as a conventional trip line attached to an anchor float. There are times when the above method will not work.

Consider these two real life underwater situations where an anchor is caught. A conventional trip line and float would work in both. A trip line cable tied to chain would work in the first situation, but I suspect not in the second, at least not without a lot of difficulty getting the trip line past the mooring block.

Both systems tend to fail in situations like this where it is the chain rather than the anchor that is caught, but with a conventional anchor trip line and float you have some hope if there is enough free chain to enable the anchor to be brought to the surface and unshackled.

In summary, if anchoring in possible foul ground a conventional trip line attached to an anchor float is the most reliable method, but steps should be taken to eliminate the danger of catching the float and unintentionally tripping the anchor.

 

[RichardS]

I only used a tripping line on a rocky bottom it's the only thing that can cause an anchor to jam.

What about a generally foul bottom? Chains, wrecks, old engine blocks, train wheels, concrete blocks etc?

Richard

This is a common system that has advantages such as keeping the trip line away from props, but if anchoring in foul ground it is not quite as reliable as a conventional trip line attached to an anchor float. There are times when the above method will not work.

Consider these two real life underwater situations where an anchor is caught. A conventional trip line and float would work in both. A trip line cable tied to chain would work in the first situation, but I suspect not in the second, at least not without a lot of difficulty getting the trip line past the mooring block.

Both systems tend to fail in situations like this where it is the chain rather than the anchor that is caught, but with a conventional anchor trip line and float you have some hope if there is enough free chain to enable the anchor to be brought to the surface and unshackled.

Good photos Noelex. We now covered fouling by chains, concrete block, engine blocks and, of course, rocks.

Can anyone contribute wrecks and/or train wheels and we'll have a full house.

Richard

 

[Gottenhimfella]

......................

Both systems tend to fail in situations like this where it is the chain rather than the anchor that is caught, but with a conventional anchor trip line and float you have some hope if there is enough free chain to enable the anchor to be brought to the surface and unshackled..................

Nice examples. Very thought-provocative.

I guess in regard to your sentence I quoted, "free chain" is a movable feast, if you're prepared to unfasten it from the clinch plate and chuck the bitter end in the tide. You could extend it with some warp, but it would have to be spliced (and preferably whipped) to render past the obstruction.
I suppose retaining a connection with the bitter end could assist, if "sawing" was needed to relieve a jam.

Strikes me a person would have to be pretty resistant to diving (eg perforated eardrum?) to go to all this trouble!
(And I include my earlier two-float + shuttlecock "solution" under the same heading)