Moving to/from the dark side - yacht size

[Neeves]

You have suggested you are going to use a 'mooring' locally - so why the hang up of marina fees.

The size of yacht you are considering can be self sufficient, decent solar array, wind and water gens and a decent battery bank will make you independent for power and de-salinators are sufficiently efficient to ensure the teenagers can enjoy their birthright of 2 showers a day (as long at they are taught frugality). Modern anchoring equipment removes the historic traumas. A dinghy can have you all ashore quickly - to take part in the shore side social life unless, of course, you enjoy being part of nightly promenade of the gawking locals.

Jonathan

 

[Angele]

Greg

A few words of encouragement from the owner of a 40 foot AWB that has none of in-mast reefing, powered winches or a bow thruster. I often sail two-handed, and have occasionally sailed her without crew. Modern AWBs are really quite manoeuvrable. Sure, it will take a while to get to know exactly what will happen when close quarters manoeuvring in various combinations or wind and tide (and I will admit that I tended to have bigger crews when I first bough Angele), but they are generally vice-free.

Sure, in mast reefing, power winches and/or a bow thruster may be nice to have but, at the bottom of the size range you indicated (like my 40 footer), they are definitely not essential if you are fit and active. If you saw a nice boat in (say) the range 40-45' which you otherwise like, but lacked one (or all!) of these, then don't let that put you off.

As others have said, the key to berthing a larger AWB in a marina is to get a midship line onto a cleat. We do this by dropping a line with a large loop over a cleat as we turn into the finger. No jumping off. Everything done calmly....... most of the time.

And my boat has 6'5" headroom in the main cabin, dropping to 6'4" in the forward cabin. At 5'7", headroom wasn't much of a consideration for me when I bought her!

 

[Greg2]

Hi Greg2

Good to talk with you today (John Rodriguez).

You may like to know we also did 25,000 miles with inmast furling

No issues. Only occasional jam getting out as sail had creased going in. Very easily rectified by a quick turn back and forth on the winch at the mast.

Hi John,
Seen your posts before but hadn’t made the link! Thans’ for the advice yesterday, it is much appreciated!

 

[Greg2]

Neeves - thanks, some food for thought. When I said mooring locally I meant a marina but in the longer term if we make it to the Med then maybe something to think about

Angele - useful to know thanks. Perhaps the list of ‘must haves’ doesn’t need to be so long.

 

[scottie]

Some random thoughts

Increased headroom is likely to increase the drop to the pontoons whilst berthing etc this can be disconcerting to nervous crew

Self tacking or no overlap head sails make a huge difference in short tacking but you may want to compensate with a cruising Shute
About 38 ft sails start to get heavier to lug about
Going up an option in engine size can ease frustration in going to a much slower pace

 

[Neeves]

Some random thoughts

Increased headroom is likely to increase the drop to the pontoons whilst berthing etc this can be disconcerting to nervous crew

Self tacking or no overlap head sails make a huge difference in short tacking but you may want to compensate with a cruising Shute
About 38 ft sails start to get heavier to lug about
Going up an option in engine size can ease frustration in going to a much slower pace

I have an alternative take on self tacking headsails - if the winds are light (and seas small - just the sort of conditions in which to sail with people unused to yachts) - then big headsails offer the ability to travel without use the engine. Self tacking headsails are small and great when its a bit more challenging but frustratingly lacking in power when sailing condition are perfect. Now if you like bashing into seas and tacking often - then definitely exclude large overlapping headsails.

I do agree - the higher the topside the more challenging to disembark - the only option is off the transom, keep fit! (or an amidships ladder).

Jonathan

 

[rotrax]

One of the main reasons for choosing an Island Packet SP Cruiser was that getting on and off through the rear cockpit door and swim platform is a doddle-no climbing!

Might keep us sailing a few years longer.

 

[Greg2]

Some more interesting thoughts. To add a little context we are not novices when it comes to sail and we are not shy of dealing with some challenging conditions but that said neither are we what you describe as experts. On the drop to the pontoon point I completely get it. Our Broom deck level was very high compared to a pontoon but had a step in the hull but even so it was a stretch for SWMBO (she isn’t 6’5”).

I have heard the term cruising chute but I must confess that I don’t actually know what one is. Are we talking something similar to a spinnaker?

Rotrax - as I said we have always had an eye for an SP cruiser but price has discouraged us. You got me looking again! Can you tell me what the dimensions of the fwd double berth are please? Looked online and no one gives it.

 

[ashtead]

One point to add in case it hasn't been raised again is to have a self tacking headsail on furler plus larger headsail on furler. Both can be run in on electric winches so switching from one to another with 1 or 2 crew is a doodle should you not wish to be hauling in the furler line . Clearly you can also have a chute on a Karver type furler as well but you might not need with a double headsail set up. Many Moody's have this double headsail set up but other makes as well

 

[jac]

I have heard the term cruising chute but I must confess that I don’t actually know what one is. Are we talking something similar to a spinnaker?

Yes but simpler to use.

Chutes don't have a pole but are set flying - The Tack is attached to a line at the stemhead ( SOme boats will have a little bowsprit fitted to take it clear of everything - usually a removable one. Then a halyard - then usually just a single sheet as many will snuff it then gybe then re rig as you will not believe the tangle that gybing a cruising chute can create.

Because it's more fixed at the corners it's a little more stable than a spinnaker and does without all the gear associated with it. The cut is more like a huge genoa made of spinnaker material. It won't set dead down wind unless poled out like a Genny ( or you drop the main) but can be held right up to a reach unlike a spinnaker.

 

[Greg2]

Yes but simpler to use.

Chutes don't have a pole but are set flying - The Tack is attached to a line at the stemhead ( SOme boats will have a little bowsprit fitted to take it clear of everything - usually a removable one. Then a halyard - then usually just a single sheet as many will snuff it then gybe then re rig as you will not believe the tangle that gybing a cruising chute can create.

Because it's more fixed at the corners it's a little more stable than a spinnaker and does without all the gear associated with it. The cut is more like a huge genoa made of spinnaker material. It won't set dead down wind unless poled out like a Genny ( or you drop the main) but can be held right up to a reach unlike a spinnaker.

Very helpful thanks. So noting that it won’t set dead down wind is it intended for use when the wind is somewhere behind you? Is it usable on a beam reach?

 

[Greg2]

One point to add in case it hasn't been raised again is to have a self tacking headsail on furler plus larger headsail on furler. Both can be run in on electric winches so switching from one to another with 1 or 2 crew is a doodle should you not wish to be hauling in the furler line . Clearly you can also have a chute on a Karver type furler as well but you might not need with a double headsail set up. Many Moody's have this double headsail set up but other makes as well

Well I have sailed dinghies as a kid and yachts every now and again but clearly this is a little more complicated than motor boating and I have a lot to learn!

The twin headsail thing makes sense though.

 

[Tranona]

Very helpful thanks. So noting that it won’t set dead down wind is it intended for use when the wind is somewhere behind you? Is it usable on a beam reach?

There are many variations of what are generally known as cruising chutes varying from large light genoas to fuller cut almost spinnakers. They are popular because many newer boats have smaller headsails, some self tacking which are poor once the wind gets aft of the beam because the big main blankets them. This is perhaps worst in light winds, The typical chute operates in the range of about 80-150 degrees, so sailing downwind usually means sailing a course 30 degrees off direct and gybing to make the destination. Often referred to sailing the angles. It is also possible to goosewing with the main, but this requires perhaps more attention to helming. Common now to fly these using a furler and they can be used comfortably up to about 15 knots.

I have just been through this exercise and waiting delivery of one. When you get to the point that you see the need for one, best to talk with a few sailmakers to get an understanding of how they are used and the pros and cons of differing variations. Many sailmakers such as Crusader, Kemps, Sanders, North, Elvestrom etc have good information on their websites to help you understand the basics.

 

[ashtead]

I am sure there must be an article somewhere on the different furler for chutes but Sanders was very helpful with his recommendations previously . The only faf seems to be rigging and storing when not hoisted which might be a consideration compared to a conventional chute kept in a long speesqueeze type device with a end which is hauled up over the sail to use. Would be interesting maybe to hear from users of Karver furler and such like as to how often they are actual sailing in winds of right strength and direction as to whether set up merits expense? You can spend a happy few hours at SBS researching topic if time permits or perhaps have a test sail on something which has one fitted . It really depends I imagine on distances and style of sailing an owner favours . Personally having the double headsails haven't yet fitted a furler for chute but others might be real fans and know more.

 

[Tranona]

I am sure there must be an article somewhere on the different furler for chutes but Sanders was very helpful with his recommendations previously . The only faf seems to be rigging and storing when not hoisted which might be a consideration compared to a conventional chute kept in a long speesqueeze type device with a end which is hauled up over the sail to use. Would be interesting maybe to hear from users of Karver furler and such like as to how often they are actual sailing in winds of right strength and direction as to whether set up merits expense? You can spend a happy few hours at SBS researching topic if time permits or perhaps have a test sail on something which has one fitted . It really depends I imagine on distances and style of sailing an owner favours . Personally having the double headsails haven't yet fitted a furler for chute but others might be real fans and know more.

The most common furler is the Selden. Karver is much more expensive but does have a ratchet. However, all of the sailmakers I talked to recommended Selden even if they were not Selden dealers.

After 2 season's experience with a fractional rig and 105% jib am pretty clear that a furling chute will enhance the boat's performance off the wind. A fellow owner of the same boat has one and confirms the benefits.

I think it is important to talk with your sailmaker as there are many options in cuts and cloths as well as sizes. As I mostly singlehand I went for a smaller size than perhaps others might. The other issue is finding a suitable place to attach the tack, although many newer boats have an attachment point built in or provision to mount a prodder.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Tranona, be good to hear how you get on with this, especially if you fly it single handed. Assuming Clipper get their act together and actually fit the cruising chute tack point that I've paid for (moan), I plan to buy a cruising chute next season.

 

[ashtead]

Graham
Have you considered a short Selden prodded pole instead of a tack point ?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Well, might have been better in hindsight, but it was ordered as a package from Clipper than included a new bow roller with the tack point. They've been incredibly and frustratingly slow in getting it fitted but I paid for it months ago. That's another tale.

 

[jonic]

We used one of these last season and it was brilliant.

http://www.atninc.com/atn-tacker-sailing-equipment.shtml

Sanders have them I think - http://www.sanders-sails.co.uk/accessories.html

 

[Tranona]

We used one of these last season and it was brilliant.

http://www.atninc.com/atn-tacker-sailing-equipment.shtml

Sanders have them I think - http://www.sanders-sails.co.uk/accessories.html

That has its uses if you already have a spinnaker and want easier handling, particularly gybing. However, the chute on a furler is a lot easier to use, although it is not intended to do the same as a spinnaker.

The choice really depends on what your objectives are and how you intend to use it. So for me being able to handle it on my own from the cockpit and improve off wind sailing in lighter airs was the brief. Sailing dead downwind for any length of time is rare in my experience but in the 90-130 or so common and where my current sailplan is lacking.

We shall see when the summer comes. Lets hope for some good weather for a change!