Moving from 70 to 100 foot.

[JoeCruiser]

Advert has been online for months. Search Ariana 31m for sale and you will find advert. They wanted 1.2m Euro originally and then dropped it to 900k Euro. It’s certainly a lot of boat for the money.

I believe the 2 crew are Turkish. She was sailed from Turkey to the Med every year for the summer under the first owner. Hence the high engine hours.

I was told she has not been a charter boat. It changed hands for the first time in May 2018. From it’s build to May 2018 it was with the same first owner.

Regarding the engines being older then 2006, the boat was probably in build for a year and the engines may have been sourced prior. I will find out.

the broker who has known the boat from new says the fuel burn rate is 130 per hour for both engines. I have no idea if he is correct or not. It does seem low. Either way it’s not a deciding factor.

now that you have seen the advert. What are the pitfalls I am to expect if I jump into a boat like that?

what can anyone tell me about the Wood epoxy build that I should be very concerned about? Should a good surveyor not be able to do some background check on the 2016 repaint and carry out a hull survey?

I don’t agree with the statement someone made in this thread that one needs to budget to replace the big ticket items once every 6 years! Yes some big ticket items will fail. However as long as it’s not an engine packing in its likely to be under £30,000 to replace the faulty item. Anyone owning a well equipped 60 foot plus boat out of warranty is aware he could get hit with a 15k unexpected bill at any time. So a £30,000 unexpected bill on a 100 foot yacht doesn’t seem too bad.

If offered for charter, due to the low purchase price it can afford be priced very keenly.

 

[dokeg22209]

You have a broker with 1 listing, based in the center of Zurich with a company that doesn't exist, selling a 31m yacht for £ 750k that was sold less than 2 years ago for £ 1.2M.
On the other side you have a buyer thinking that such a 145 GT yacht costs £ 25k in maintenance/repairs and burns 130 liters for both engines. What could possibly go wrong.

 

[colhel]

Regarding the the building materials, why would anyone choose this method over GRP if selling of wooden boats is known to be more problematic?

 

[Bouba]

Having two owners means the crew could start playing mummy against daddy

 

[MapisM]

was sold less than 2 years ago for £ 1.2M

Can you tell for sure?
Some websites indeed mention an asking price in that ballpark, but that tells us close to nothing about the actual selling price.

Besides, it never ceases to amaze me how many boaters seem attracted by getting "a lot of boat for the money".
A concept which Oscar Wilde would describe as knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing.
There's only one golden rule with the size of boats, and it's to go for the smaller which is enough for your needs, not for the larger that you can afford.

As an example, only a few years ago, I came across an amazing Canados, of which I posted some pics in this thread.
Smaller than the boat which is being debated here, but not a dinghy either, at 85+ feet.
Built with triple diagonal planks of mahogany, by a boatyard which produced some of the best pleasure boats of the planet, before that Turkish yard even started building gulet workboats.
I could have bought her for roughly the same price that I eventually paid for a plastic boat, which happens to be no less than 30 feet smaller.
For myself, the actual value was in fact higher for the latter than for the former.

So, by the same token, the value of this Ariana thing is very much subjective, and as such only the OP can judge for himself.
But if we should talk of market prices instead, which is a totally different concept, the current asking price is, if anything, pretty high.
Assuming that she's in very good conditions btw, because if she were somewhat neglected it would be totally irrealistic.

 

[Bouba]

Can you tell for sure?
Some websites indeed mention an asking price in that ballpark, but that tells us close to nothing about the actual selling price.

Besides, it never ceases to amaze me how many boaters seem attracted by getting "a lot of boat for the money".
A concept which Oscar Wilde would describe as knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing.
There's only one golden rule with the size of boats, and it's to go for the smaller which is enough for your needs, not for the larger that you can afford.

As an example, only a few years ago, I came across an amazing Canados, of which I posted some pics in this thread.
Smaller than the boat which is being debated here, but not a dinghy either, at 85+ feet.
Built with triple diagonal planks of mahogany, by a boatyard which produced some of the best pleasure boats of the planet, before that Turkish yard even started building gulet workboats.
I could have bought her for roughly the same price that I eventually paid for a plastic boat, which happens to be no less than 30 feet smaller.
For myself, the actual value was in fact higher for the latter than for the former.

So, by the same token, the value of this Ariana thing is very much subjective, and as such only the OP can judge for himself.
But if we should talk of market prices instead, which is a totally different concept, the current asking price is, if anything, pretty high.
Assuming that she's in very good conditions btw, because if she were somewhat neglected it would be totally irrealistic.

Can I ask a cheeky question? Now that you’ve had a chance to stay on a very large boat, is smaller really better??

 

[MapisM]

Can I ask a cheeky question? Now that you’ve had a chance to stay on a very large boat, is smaller really better??

Well, define "better".
For living aboard as guests, without having any of the ownership-related hassles, of course the larger the better (*).
And in this respect, also that wooden Canados in my old thread would have been spectacular.
But for living aboard AND operate/maintain/preserve the thing, neither myself nor the 1st mate have the slightest regret in not having gone larger.

(*): still, within reason, anyway - I certainly wouldn't fancy even just keeping clean a 100'+ boat.
And since I fancy even less (affordability aside) permanent crew, above 80' or so any further size increase actually becomes a negative value, if you see what I mean. But that's me - each to their own, of course.

 

[Bouba]

Well, define "better".
For living aboard as guests, without having any of the ownership-related hassles, of course the larger the better (*).
And in this respect, also that wooden Canados in my old thread would have been spectacular.
But for living aboard AND operate/maintain/preserve the thing, neither myself nor the 1st mate have the slightest regret in not having gone larger.

(*): still, within reason, anyway - I certainly wouldn't fancy even just keeping clean a 100'+ boat.
And since I fancy even less (affordability aside) permanent crew, above 80' or so any further size increase actually becomes a negative value, if you see what I mean. But that's me - each to their own, of course.

Yes, I agree. I dream of large boats but when I wake up I know the truth. But a boat with a crew could solve all that?⛴???

 

[JoeCruiser]

When you want to go over 75 foot then full time crew are part of the deal. So not being able to self drive doesn't really bother me. It allows me to drink, and makes someone else responsible for the vessel and passengers safety.
It certainly has its pros and cons.
I can take control under the captains supervision when I fancy.

Regarding my crew estimate. I enquired today with the current owner, the captain (500GT ticket) and deckhand annual wages cost less then my £70,000 estimate.

Most newish branded 70 foot (£2 Mil) motor boat will be depreciating at circa £200,000 a year. They cost at least £50,000 to operate without any crew. (Unless the owner is very hands on.) Add in a captain and you are talking £100,000 plus a year.

Will that Megni Yay depreciates another £200k a year over the next 3 years? I don’t think it will. The way I see it instead of paying 200k a year on depreciation on a newer smaller boat, I am instead burning it in running cost.

My initial outlay is half a newer 70 foot boat.

I am aware that every week on board will cost me an additional £5-10k in fuel, food and additional crew. I am getting the amenities of a 100 foot boat for that money.

I can retrofit stabilisation and refresh soft furnishings and still be in for less then half the cost of a 70 foot 2 year old boat. Hence I can’t ignore the concept of a lot of boat for the money.

Similar concept to buying cars. One can buy a 2 year old Ford Mondeo for £15,000 or a 5 year old AUDI A8. I prefer the older A8.

 

[Bouba]

When you want to go over 75 foot then full time crew are part of the deal. So not being able to self drive doesn't really bother me. It allows me to drink, and makes someone else responsible for the vessel and passengers safety.
It certainly has its pros and cons.
I can take control under the captains supervision when I fancy.

Regarding my crew estimate. I enquired today with the current owner, the captain (500GT ticket) and deckhand annual wages cost less then my £70,000 estimate.

Most newish branded 70 foot (£2 Mil) motor boat will be depreciating at circa £200,000 a year. They cost at least £50,000 to operate without any crew. (Unless the owner is very hands on.) Add in a captain and you are talking £100,000 plus a year.

Will that Megni Yay depreciates another £200k a year over the next 3 years? I don’t think it will. The way I see it instead of paying 200k a year on depreciation on a newer smaller boat, I am instead burning it in running cost.

My initial outlay is half a newer 70 foot boat.

I am aware that every week on board will cost me an additional £5-10k in fuel, food and additional crew. I am getting the amenities of a 100 foot boat for that money.

I can retrofit stabilisation and refresh soft furnishings and still be in for less then half the cost of a 70 foot 2 year old boat. Hence I can’t ignore the concept of a lot of boat for the money.

Similar concept to buying cars. One can buy a 2 year old Ford Mondeo for £15,000 or a 5 year old AUDI A8. I prefer the older A8.

Go for it! The forum is always looking for a mega party boat???

 

[jrudge]

Bear in mind there is depreciation and liquidity. Selling this with a wooden hull will be tricky.

IF you are buying with another you investment is small so this may not bother you.

Give it a go!

 

[JoeCruiser]

@jrudge
I have thought about the liquidity and depreciation. Thankfully I can afford it.


I would only buy it with a partner.

It’s not something I want to necessarily do for years and years. I am young and still willing to make mistakes.

if I do take the plunge I will keep a detailed cost spreadsheet.

Despite all this back and forward. I am still not clear on why wood epoxy hulls are so hated. I understand why all GRP is preferred. Isn’t a wood epoxy hull semi GRP anyway. I wouldn’t have thought it would be any more susceptible to leaking then an all GRP hull.
Longevity and perhaps the nails failing can be a factor. However unless failures are common then I don’t see the issue.
Megni Yay Manufactured 30-40 meters yachts with the same construction methods until recently

 

[MapisM]

I am aware that every week on board will cost me an additional £5-10k in fuel, ...

Just fwiw, and against the view of some previous posters, actually I would trust the declared fuel burn numbers.
120/130 lph means an output in the 600/650 hp ballpark, which should be more than enough to move that thing around at her displacement speed.
OTOH, It's the 12/13 kts cruising speed that sounds a tad optimistic, but I would be confident to burn not more than, or even a bit less, at least at 10/11 kts. Which in turn also means getting used to different cruise plans vs. a planing boat, but obviously you are already aware of that, regardless of 1 knot more or less.
Generally speaking, if there's one thing where that boat will surely be cheaper to maintain than any 70' planing boat, it's fuel burn - that's a given.
It's just about everything else, that I wouldn't fancy...
But as I already said, each to their own!

Anyhow, keep us updated if you'll decide to go ahead.
You might not have noticed this since you are a new subscriber, but build and refitting threads are always highly appreciated, here in the asylum.
And you can surely find plenty of expertise and suggestions on practically all boat components.
Just as one example, the stabilization which you mention is a topic that has been extensively debated in the past, also for retrofitting.
We even have one member who managed to convert to zero speed an old pair of fin stabilizers recovered from another installation - I kid you not!
The only caveat is that you'd better get used to deal with very different (and sometimes possibly conflicting!) approaches.
But that comes with any forum territory, so to speak.
Fair winds for the project!

 

[MapisM]

I am still not clear on why wood epoxy hulls are so hated.

Since I've been the first to mention my concern, I feel to owe you an explanation.
But it's actually a very hard topic to be treated properly, and I would think that by googling around a bit you should find some much better explanations than I could give you. PBB magazine is a reputable source you could start with, for instance.

But in a nutshell, the problems with that type of constructions are:

1) it's among the most demanding in terms of construction skills.
This would concern me for any boat built in Turkey, because even if I can't be positive about this specific yard, most are a sort of jack of all trades, building in wood (either traditional or epoxied), plastic, steel, alu - whatever the client asks.

2) moisture infiltrations underneath the epoxy skin layer can happen for all sort of reasons, and are usually extremely hard to detect - up to the moment when the wood inside is rot enough to create structural problem, i.e. way too late.

3) any repair require as skillful and experienced carpenters as for the construction, if not better.
More so than with the traditional plank on frames method, which is already above the average competence that you can find in most boatyards, nowadays.

Anyway, if you find (and you really should!) a good surveyor, familiar with this technique, I'm sure he will explain you all this and then some, in much better details. As well as I'm sure he will point out what he can and he can NOT do, because afaik, a thorough survey of the whole hull is practically impossible to make without almost demolishing several parts of it.

 

[Portofino]

I think there are some pretty excellent wood / epoxy only yards in Turkey and some crappy fibreglass builders in the western Med countries not without structural issues .
I know of a guy with a yard in Turkey ( 3rd generation ) who over the winter builds one boat just a bit smaller than what the OP is looking at using wood and skilled craftsmen .
The yard only builds the one boat a year .
By the summer it’s ready / finished and he then skippers it on charter during the season , flogs it on by November and starts another ....so the cycle repeats .
All his boats and the majority of his fathers are still afloat . He turns business away
The yard do repairs I hasten to add but so do plastic boat yards ...osmosis .

I think with this as said it’s basically depreciation free or negligible, low fuel use .
Maths make perfect sense for two partners, up to £100 K each ( if that ) it’s just visible that’s all .
Invisible is deprecation on a new or newish ....take a £2 to £21/2 Million 70 ft something, have a bit of fun for 5 seasons .
flog it it will loose a greater sum than £500 K then toss in its running costs x 5 years or x6 in the sale year , toss in way more fuel a P speeds X 5 years for .
As the op says subtract driving it ( you can do passages in the 31 M avec crew ) party more as well , easy for long week ends as with crew it will more of a end to end experience .

As far as the current condition ( of course have it surveyed ) but also get hold of the recent painting info ...who? , where ? etc , there probably are some pics or a file somewhere by the yard of the prep work which should shine a light on any bad bits .

Interesting comparison .
Can I ask the OP what’s the intended use age pattern and where are thinking of initially berthing it .....which part of the Med ?

 

[JoeCruiser]

I am not sure yet.
I know I want to avoid South of France.
I would try make good use of the fact she will be a long distance cheapish cruiser. The engine hours are high enough that adding another thousand or two won’t make much difference to the value.

I live in London and would be flying out to use it. I see myself using it a week at a time.


I prefer to stay away from the mainlands.
I would like to do 4-7 day trips.

I want to see what she is like overnight at anchor. if the boat is comfortable at anchor then I would like to cruise in a location with sufficient protected anchorages.

 

[Eren]

I don’t know about the actual condition of this boat but Mengi Yay is a quite well established shipyard with international awards and they have vast experience and know-how especially about wooden construction. I had been at one of their wood/epoxy boats (Seleda) last year. We had a long conversation with the captain of the boat and he was very happy with the quality of the boat, plus the support from the shipyard, whenever it is needed. I wouldn’t have big question marks about the quality of the boat. I would contact Mengi Yay to find out about the history of this hull.

 

[PilotWolf]

I’m sorry and don’t want to annoy you but there is no way that is an acceptable wage for a skipper alone, let alone a deckhand too.

I’d be seriously looking into why they’re working for that money.

PW

 

[AndieMac]

Well, define "better".
For living aboard as guests, without having any of the ownership-related hassles, of course the larger the better (*).
And in this respect, also that wooden Canados in my old thread would have been spectacular.
But for living aboard AND operate/maintain/preserve the thing, neither myself nor the 1st mate have the slightest regret in not having gone larger.

(*): still, within reason, anyway - I certainly wouldn't fancy even just keeping clean a 100'+ boat.
And since I fancy even less (affordability aside) permanent crew, above 80' or so any further size increase actually becomes a negative value, if you see what I mean. But that's me - each to their own, of course.

Couldn't agree more, both yourselves and B and E have boats that really suit the lifestyles they were acquired for.

 

[James L]

I think there are some pretty excellent wood / epoxy only yards in Turkey and some crappy fibreglass builders in the western Med countries not without structural issues .
I know of a guy with a yard in Turkey ( 3rd generation ) who over the winter builds one boat just a bit smaller than what the OP is looking at using wood and skilled craftsmen .
The yard only builds the one boat a year .
By the summer it’s ready / finished and he then skippers it on charter during the season , flogs it on by November and starts another ....so the cycle repeats .
All his boats and the majority of his fathers are still afloat . He turns business away
The yard do repairs I hasten to add but so do plastic boat yards ...osmosis .

I think with this as said it’s basically depreciation free or negligible, low fuel use .
Maths make perfect sense for two partners, up to £100 K each ( if that ) it’s just visible that’s all .
Invisible is deprecation on a new or newish ....take a £2 to £21/2 Million 70 ft something, have a bit of fun for 5 seasons .
flog it it will loose a greater sum than £500 K then toss in its running costs x 5 years or x6 in the sale year , toss in way more fuel a P speeds X 5 years for .
As the op says subtract driving it ( you can do passages in the 31 M avec crew ) party more as well , easy for long week ends as with crew it will more of a end to end experience .

As far as the current condition ( of course have it surveyed ) but also get hold of the recent painting info ...who? , where ? etc , there probably are some pics or a file somewhere by the yard of the prep work which should shine a light on any bad bits .

Interesting comparison .
Can I ask the OP what’s the intended use age pattern and where are thinking of initially berthing it .....which part of the Med ?

I think the worry is a crappy fiberglass built boat will likely cause less problems than a crappy wood epoxy build.
Plus it will be more difficult to find someone skilled enough to work on it without causing problems. Fiberglass is relatively easy to repair.

Assuming everything is in great nick on the hull - your other worry is forums like this convincing any prospective buyers that a wooden boat will bankrupt them
Not such a problem if you have plenty of time to sell, but if for whatever reason you or your partner is in a rush to sell up you'll likely take a bit hit.

However, it's just money - if you write off the purchase price immediately then you only need to worry about ongoing costs. And if you get something back whenever you try to sell it, well that's a bonus