"motor sailing" what's that all about?

[Searush]

+1
There are times where you have to but then I consider my passage planning was not good enough...

If I have to listen to an engine I want to be paid for it...

You want to try sailing the N Wales area with tide gates, overfalls & drying harbours. There are many passages that simply would not be possible if the wind falls a little light or heads you a tad, in those cases a bit of proper motor-sailing can make a huge difference between missing a tide & anchoring off an exposed lee shore, battering on all night to the next harbour (may need engine anyway to overcome tides of 3+ kts) or being safely tucked up in a safe harbour with a glass in your hand.

You, Elton et al, can sail as you choose, but decrying the choices of others without appreciating the issues says more about your intolerance & lack of understanding than it does about those who for many reasons enjoy the benefits of motor-sailing. You might do well to re-read Maurice Griffiths "Magic of the Swatchways" for some instruction.

Like yourselves the moment of silence when the engine goes off remains magic, but knowing that I can point much closer the wind, clear a dangerous headland, beat the overfalls, make an important tide gate or gain a drying harbour is just as magic.

 

[lw395]

Why the oft-repeated contempt for people who choose to use their engines when they could be sailing e.g. "if he wants to motor should have bought a motor boat"?. My boat has two alternative sources of power and I'll use whichever suits my needs and inclination. If I don't feel like heeling over and pulling ropes and just want to chug along enjoying the view then that's what I'll do and you "purists" can think what you like of me.

I agree.
Personally, I like to sail whenever possible and turn the motor off.
But sometimes a bit of both works for me.
If the wind is patchy, leaving the motor gently pulling when there is breeze is a lot less grief than dropping the main every time the wind drops and hoisting it when it fills in.
It also allow the batteries to charge while underway.

I think The OP refers to a bit of an extreme case though.

I think if you have a folding prop, letting the sails drive the boat faster than the prop is trying to (if you see what I mean?) can mean the prop is partly folding which causes a lot of wear.
So as soon as the engine is contributing nothing, I put it in reverse momentarily to fold the prop, then neutral or stop the motor.
I don't know if this s true of autoprops.

 

[NormanS]

Autoprop is a different ball game altogether. If I am sailing at 2 knots, because of lack of wind, and want make 4 knots, I only need the engine on tick-over. The pitch of the prop aiutomatically increases, so that I get 2 + 2 giving 4 knots.

 

[Ariadne]

"Why the oft-repeated contempt for people who choose to use their engines when they could be sailing e.g. "if he wants to motor should have bought a motor boat"?. My boat has two alternative sources of power and I'll use whichever suits my needs and inclination. If I don't feel like heeling over and pulling ropes and just want to chug along enjoying the view then that's what I'll do and you "purists" can think what you like of me."

This!
Too many bigots on here, you'll be telling me I shouldn't use GPS next as sextants are better!!

Sailing/cruising/boating is all what you, the owner want out of it; it's certainly not for others to judge me because I choose to use my motor.

I live on my boat 27/7/365 I sail when I want and motor/motor sail when it suits me, my family and when I feel like.

I just enjoy being on the sea and everybody out on the water is doing the same, just because we motor doesn't make any less a sailor does it!

 

[elton]

Ok, glossing over accusations of bigotry, how about someone either correcting or confirming my perhaps naive belief that if the tell-tales aren't horizontal and parallel, then the sail isn't driving the boat; and if the sail isn't driving the boat, then the engine is simply dragging the sail hopelessly and inefficiently through the air.

 

[lw395]

Ok, glossing over accusations of bigotry, how about someone either correcting or confirming my perhaps naive belief that if the tell-tales aren't horizontal and parallel, then the sail isn't driving the boat; and if the sail isn't driving the boat, then the engine is simply dragging the sail hopelessly and inefficiently through the air.

The sails may be useless all of the time or only some of the time.
Even if they are not driving the boat, they may be usefully stopping it rolling unpleasantly.


It sounds to me that you went sailing with people whose ideas don't match with yours.
I probably agree with you but they may equally think my idea of a good day on the water racing round a few triangles is silly.
Maybe they just don't 'get' sailing as we know it?

 

[chubby]

Ok I am biased because I have a motorsailor, but I enjoy making efficient passages and making best use of available resources, I enjoy the ability to sail when suitable so don`t want a motorboat but think it is seamanlike to use the engine with the sails up, either as steadying sails or to provide some drive, to achieve a passage plan. I have just completed a 2 week channel island and French cruise and there are tidal gates, locks and cills all to reach by a certain time. It may be the case in years gone by with low power unreliable engines that you head off where the tide takes you but in my book it is daft to do a passage say from one port with a cill to another, drift around getting nowhere, miss the tide, get locked out etc when you have a reliable 42HP under your cockpit floor that will start at the flick of a switch.

 

[Ariadne]

I've often found in light winds, that by motor sailing I can get a great lift off the sail, and go faster than I could under sail alone and at a lower revs than under engine alone; a win, win situation and you get to the next anchorage before dark so you can see the reefs, etc!.

The point of motor sailing is to get performance the most efficient way. Your tell tales may all by flying well, but under sail alone you may not quite the lift you think you have, but each boat is different and so are the crews; it's what makes boat so much fun.

 

[Coaster]

I used to think that boating was mainly about freedom, individuality and tolerance (except of course for racing and other organised events). Fortunately it still is for me.

Some people in this forum evidently think differently.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

If the sail has shape to it and is not flapping then it is still producing lift but not as efficient as wind only drive. I would hazard a guess that the extra flow of wind caused by the engine is stuffing the luff into the air stream and causing turbulence near the leading edge i.e. the difference between natural air flow point of natural lift and engine air flow point of maximum lift produces a buffer at the leading edge.

 

[Uricanejack]

Ok, glossing over accusations of bigotry, how about someone either correcting or confirming my perhaps naive belief that if the tell-tales aren't horizontal and parallel, then the sail isn't driving the boat; and if the sail isn't driving the boat, then the engine is simply dragging the sail hopelessly and inefficiently through the air.

+1 would be my thought.
On a recent longer trip I had a battery problem, started the engine about every 4 or 6 hrs. To charge battery. First I left in neutral at idle. Decided to try in gear at idle next time. Similar conditions, approx. 20 knot headwind offshore swell going to windward,
I was sailing, the motor running for other reason. When comparing progress, I went slower with the engine in gear.
I was sailing at about 5.5 to 6 knots reefed main and 110.
I think it was increased drag of pulling a slowly turning screw through the water faster than it was screwing its way through the water which slowed me down.
I was faster just sailing with prop folded. Left it out of gear next time battery needed charge.
I don't have an opinion on the validity of the technique.
I would expect for it to have value you have to match the sail’s trim and the engines and screws performance to the boats speed.
To some extent a full sail which is not flogging but stalled will provide some lift though less efficiently than if not stalled. There will be a point at which the drag of the stalled sail is greater than the lift provided.
Depending upon where you are the collision avoidance rule change by using the engine while apparently sailing becomes an extra complication I can do without.

 

[Daydream believer]

Autoprop is a different ball game altogether. If I am sailing at 2 knots, because of lack of wind, and want make 4 knots, I only need the engine on tick-over. The pitch of the prop aiutomatically increases, so that I get 2 + 2 giving 4 knots.

For normal use i am far from impressed with my auto prop but as you point out the ability to get a bit of push on tickover or a small amount of throttle makes it all worthwhile

On my first Stella with its Stuart Turner i found that in certain conditions with just a genoa i might get 1-2 kts
With the engine i might get the same
However, engine & genoa together i could get 5-6 kts. It seemed that the sum of the 2 was greater than the individual parts. I found that very useful

Re the telltales-- not all mainsails work with the woolies flying. On some mainsail driven boats a lot of drive comes from the leach & it needs to pulled down hard ( not in) To get the drive. The telltales would be well stalled. Ask some good laser phantom sailors & they will confirm. I admit, however, that cruisers are a bit different

Am i the only one with a quiet engine? My volvo runs as sweet as a sewing machine & makes very little noise if not revved too hard.

 

[2nd_apprentice]

Am i the only one with a quiet engine? My volvo runs as sweet as a sewing machine & makes very little noise if not revved too hard.

Can you hear the bow wave and the sound of the hull cutting through the water from the cockpit? Genuine question, I can't.

 

[dylanwinter]

Can you hear the bow wave and the sound of the hull cutting through the water from the cockpit? Genuine question, I can't.

and the sound of the birds..... the wind in the trees.....the gentle rumble of an oncoming mobo

in a comment on one of my films I was told that I was being naughty drifting down the Trent - sometimes on the wrong side of the river



"what would happen if a motor boat or one of those big commercial vessels came around the corne to see some idiot on the wrong bankr"

the answer is that I would hear it long before it appeared

there really is a beauty in being able to hear the world the way the Romans and Vikings who came up these rivers heard it

Dylan

 

[capnsensible]

I have tried sailing on my own a few times

Its a bit boring really

like going to a pub to find there are no customers or bar staff

pouring yourself a beer and sat looking at the wall whilst drinking it

At least one could moan about cars going past

To ones self......

 

[dylanwinter]

I have tried sailing on my own a few times

Its a bit boring really

like going to a pub to find there are no customers or bar staff

pouring yourself a beer and sat looking at the wall whilst drinking it

At least one could moan about cars going past

To ones self......

you are so right

the veil has been lifted

it is just like sitting in a pub by yourself

sailing is **** and boring

I am utterly dulled out by it

the Zen has gone

gonna give it up now and buy a mobo

 

[2nd_apprentice]

Reminds me of the last trip I did in my old boat. Had already sold the engine but thought we could go out for one last trip on a summer day. Paddled for a while until we where offered a tow and later anchored in a small bay for the night. Next morning we got up early, upped the anchor and back home we went in a very slight breeze. Watched the wildlife, a few rowers and the town waking up on the shores. We literally drifted for more than two hours, a trip which would've taken less than 20 minutes under engine. Pure magic.

 

[Babylon]

I like to sail.

But sometimes I need to use the engine.

EG last summer I sailed from the Hamble to Weymouth. But I then needed to cross Lyme Bay and the weather was consistently just south of west, so I rounded Portland Bill (inner passage) and motorsailed almost directly into a WSW5 with the usual choppy swell for ten hours or something until I made Dartmouth. I then sailed west from there, with all the usual stopovers, as far as the Helford. I then sailed all the way back, taking in a few stops again.

Another EG: I've done a typical weekend on the Solent and need to get the boat back on her mooring so I can drive my son back to his mother's for Sunday evening, but the wind is lighter than forecast or its direction is more on the nose than I'd like and there's not much of a fair tide left, so I motorsail.

Another EG: I'm crossing from The Needles to Cherbourg, but there's a bit of swell slowing me, the wind sometimes heads me a bit and/or goes light for some of the time, so if my speed drops below 4.5kts and/or I can't make my heading I switch the engine on and motorsail to keep my passage efficient.

I think most of us on here would do exactly the same - which is quite different to what the OP was describing: a skipper who almost never switched off the engine, and who probably did so because he didn't understand how the sails actually worked!

 

[Daydream believer]

Can you hear the bow wave and the sound of the hull cutting through the water from the cockpit? Genuine question, I can't.

If i have my hearing aid in -- then yes easily

 

[Ariadne]

Can you hear the bow wave and the sound of the hull cutting through the water from the cockpit? Genuine question, I can't.

We don't have any problem hearing the bow cutting through a wave and the water slicing down the sides of the boat when sailing, if we are lucky, through the hull, we hear whales and dolphins calling/singing as well.

Now how cool is that??