Motor sailing cones.

[Karlvw]

Does anybody use them? Recently whilst sailing off Portugal the wind died,had to turn the engine on.Thought that I would be good and hoist the cone.Never seen one used in anger before,or have I? As my son pointed out "Who can see it? The sail is in the way." There was an unexpected bonus to it, it fell overboard and made us practice our man overboard routine. Yes we did recover it.

 

[ToMo]

Aah but did you hoist it back up and earn extra Brownie points?

TôMö

 

[Guest]

It has been suggested to me that any vessel not showing the correct lights or shapes that is involved in a "incident" not of their own making, could lose out if the skipper of the other vessel uses this as a mitigating circumstance. I have never tried to verify this, but I am now careful to comply with the "col regs" as well as being careful.

Cheers

The Lash

 

[MedMan]

I was stopped by the French Maritime Police in North Biscay a few years back for failing to show a cone when motor sailing. They let me off when I quickly produced one from a locker and hoisted it. Now I use a permanently-hoisted collapsible cone attached just below my port spreader. One pull on a string and it opens up like an umbrella - release the string and it goes back to sleep looking like a large bat in the rigging. An approaching vessel would have to be quite close and coming at the right angle to be sure of seeing it but at least it shows willing.

I believe it was called 'Easy Cone' when I bought it by mail order. I would dearly like a replacement as it has been up there for six years and is getting a bit tatty. However, I haven't seen it advertised recently. Can anyone help?

 

[vyv_cox]

We bought one this year after decades of non-ownership, because we were told that the German authorities insisted upon their use. In the event, we saw as many German boats motor-sailing without them as we did those of other nationalities. I very rarely motor-sail anyway as I would much prefer not to have my main flapping, but I do think this is a daft rule. Since most of us only do 5-6 knots max, how does it help others to know that we are actually doing engine speed rather than 2-3 knots sailing speed?

Anchor balls is another. Very many small fishing boats in the Netherlands have them permanently installed, rather defeating the object. On occasions when we needed to know whether ships were anchored, e.g. offshore Elbe/Weser, we had to be well under a mile from the ship before being able to discern the ball amongst all the other clutter on decks.

One other. We were informed by the Brian Navin guide to Germany and Denmark that code flag N was required when passing through the Kiel canal, indicating that we did not require the services of a pilot. Ours was the only yacht we saw that had one.

 

[ccscott49]

Whether you think it's naff or not is beside the point, it's a legal requirement of the collision regulations. You had better use one in french waters, they are hot on it, when have fishing boats ever abided by any regualtions, they can't even abide by theor own! i use one and an anchor ball, you will have a hefty fine to pay in Portugal if you're caught without one. Every boat at the anchorage I can see in St. Antonio has an anchor ball and light at night, whats the big deal? Just because other people don't, doesn't mean it's a rule to be ignored, remember "rules are for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"

 

[Buck]

I was told yesterday during conversation that an English chap was prosecuted for not displaying one in Belgian waters.

Buck

Urrrgh.

 

[blackbird]

Flapping main

I think there is a bit of a misconception here. Motoring into the wind with the mainsail up is not "motorsailing". Although I haven't got the regs to hand, I think it is arguable whether the one pertaining to cones actually relates to that situation at all. If you do that, you are being propelled by machinery, pure and simple. (Otherwise, what about small fishing boats with steadying sails etc. ? Where is the line drawn?) I grant you, however, that this is how the rule is now generally construed.

The real issue is real motorsailing - when you are being propelled by sail AND machinery. That is, when you are giving yourself a bit of a boost upwind or trying to weather an obstacle, or some such situation, by using some engine power but with full sails. It is fairly common and can be very confusing, for example, if the skipper using engine follows the power/sail rule and the other boat assumes he or she will follow the sail/sail rule etc. (not being aware that the engine is on) In crowded waters or in a harbour it is safer to roll in enough genoa to make sure the cone is visible from both sides. That's good practice anyway, as it means you can also see. Not many people do though.

Whatever the situation, at least the cone indicates the skipper's intention of behaving like a powerboat, which helps other skippers to make their own decisions about applying the rules.

 

[vyv_cox]

Re: Flapping main

No misconception. If there is enough wind, sail. If there isn't, motor. If it's half and half, say about F 1-2, you could leave one or both sails up, but what for? The power generated by the sails is not worth having. Sooner or later it is almost inevitable that the apparent wind will go so far forward that the sail(s) will flap.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Flapping main

I agree, no wind, motor or anchor dependant on your time. wind, sail if not quite enough then motor/sail if in a hurry, I motor sail most of the time, having a motor sailer, I need lots of wind to move her!

 

[blackbird]

Re: Flapping main

That's exactly what I mean. If the main is flapping, you are NOT being propelled by both sail and machinery. Motorsailing is when you are getting drive from both.
Mostly, this issue comes up when people drive upwind with a mainsail hoisted and no jib - not motorsailing.

 

[CliveG]

On my Costal Skipper course at the Southern Sailing school the instructor had the genoa furled and the motoring cone hoisted on the spinnaker halyard and made fast to the foredeck on a storm sail attachment half way between the forestay and the mast.
It was thus visible to all who needed to know that we should be treated as a power craft.

I would agree with other posters that the cone being hidden by the genoa could make for some hairy moments in confined waters.

CliveG

 

[Gunfleet]

Then he was a fool. All had to say was he had the engine running but out of gear. How do they know the difference? If he was in a sailing boat with the sails down and motoring he doesn't need one. If he travelled for some distance head to wind why were the sails up? It doesn't make sense. Like so much.

 

[Karlvw]

I didn't worry about extra brownie points,we just furled the sail and put the kettle on.

 

[muchy_]

It helps us poor stinkies if you show your cone then we can just pass you port to port instead of all that faffing about trying to keep out of your way.

 

[SteveA]

I'm amazed - I've yet to see a yacht motor sailing showing a cone! - that's after thirty odd years sailing.

Steve.

p.s. I'm a yachtie, own a cone, but have yet to use it.

 

[RayB]

Yet you lot stil expect us stinkies to "give way to sail" and cheat with the motor on. Perhaps I should run down the next raggie that does this then sue the ass off him in a test case?

Displaying a cone defines right of way in relation to the Col Regs you lot!!!


R

"Hopefully that won't be too expensive to fix?"

 

[Guest]

Re: Flapping main

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards

Above is the actual rule, so technically if your sail is flapping you are not motorsailing. However there is seamanship and commonsense to be considered or to put it another way the observing the spirit rather than the letter of the rules.

So I would say if you put the engine on for 5 minutes whilst sailing to round an obstruction and this isnt going affect any other vessels, to put the cone up is unnecesary, despite being required. If you were to motor to windward for several hours in a busy area with the main up but essentially not drawing I would say this is case were it would be prudent to show your cone although not strictly required.

Cheers

The Lash

 

[terence]

well to be fair i think the french and the germans are a pain in the butt ?
they do not follow the regs them selves and they hit us as soon as we do not!
we should do the same to them when they come over here i have seen loads of
french boats not flying the curtiesy flag thats got to be worth 3 yrs in the brig???
plus loss of boat and women.

 

[roger]

I got chased by the police in Zeebrugge harbour for not hauling down my motor cone after taking down the sails. Theres not much sense in it but in Belgium and probably Germany its so much easier to follow the rules and avoid the hassle and the costs.