More than 90% of boats not affected.

[scarlett]

The marina near me contains about 100 boats. Maybe a 50/50 mix of sail and power. Some of each use petrol. Most of the boats are used as a weekend retreat or not used at all. About 10% go out during the summer and of them, mostly sail.

Not just the fact that those not using their boats aren't going to be affected but they will be hard to motivate, other than signing a petition. I don't fancy our chances of a mass movement stopping this tax hike!



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[halcyon]

Just had our owner's association quarterly, in it was a bit on red diesel, which has information I've not seen.
If red diesel is scraped we us Ultra Low Sulpher Diesel (ULSD), older marine diesels are not designed to run on it, and it causes havoc with fuel pumps. The truck industry went through it a couple of years ago. Modern engines with fuel pumps designed for ULSD are ok, but the fuel system must be spotless.
Another problem is the collection of water, refining uses high pressure steam to remove the sulpher, and ULSD acts like a magnet to moisture. With road vehicles it is constantly being changed due to usage, but what is going to happen on a boat were it is sitting in tanks for long periods.
When things change from red to ULSD for non commercial operators, are people going to stock both ? what will be the cost of two storage syatems ? who is going to pay?
When the diesel goes up to match EU duyty rates, road fuel must come down to match EU rate, so motor baoters that do a high milage in there cars may break even, and are likely to have modern engines that will run ULSD. Equally it may be yachties who do not use there car's and have a old engine that could end up coasting a furtune.
Plus the loss in road fuel duty is going to be greater than the gain in red diesel.

May be a load of rubbish, may be true, but it is something I've not read in the 1,000's of words writtren on the forum.

Any one with comments.?

Brian

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[nct1]

I have a 10 year old 18hp diesel, but I use garage diesel rather than red for convenience, and have not found any problems with it last season.

The tank is kept full and I do not use more than 5-10 litres on any trip.

Maybe this phenomenom affects larger engines ?


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[Joe_Cole]

Brian,

If you post this on Scuttlebut or PBO you'll probably get an expert opinion from Nigel Luther on this.

Joe

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[halcyon]

I did, this is the only article I've seen that says something, not just moans or gloats.

If it's true could be expensive for a lot of old boat owners running on a shoe string.

Brian

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[TrueBlue]

You may be right as regards to boats in coastal marinas, but there are an awful lot of boats on inland waters, EA say 20,000 on their rivers and a similar number on BW's waters. My guess is that 85% of them at least are oil burners.

For a significant number of them to give up boating would be a disaster for those two authorities, not only a loss of revenue, but the traffic generated attracts 'gongoozlers' to the waterside and contributes to the health and wellbeing of that local environment.

What really sticks in my craw is that the whole sorry mess is a product of muddled EU legislation. It started as an attempt to have some form of parity for road fuel across the EU, then someone added pleasure boating to the list. There is no discussion of commercial non road fuel use such as builders generators, dumper trucks cranes and the like, not to mention agricultural use. Increased costs on these classes of users are likely to add to inflation, which private boaters will not.

"Government" is not saying much at the moment - probably because nobody has yet thought through all the implications, and even so it is all very much small beer.

Reluctantly (after all most people are happy to live with the status quo), I would be reasonably content to pay a bit more in taxation, and I think most of us could live with what our continental friends pay for their diesel, but such a huge and sudden increase in costs is just totally unacceptable.

Rather than continuing a general series of rants, I think "we" (interested parties) should press for more details on exactly what is to happen:-

1. Is there any likelyhood that the government is to apply for a further derogation, and if so what is the expected outcome.

2. How do "they" propose to enforce the use of white diesel, simply make MGO unavailable to the boater (withdraw retailers licenses), or make it illegal to use MGO in a private boat?

3. If there is to be a compromise how would it operate? MGO to pay VAT at standard rate, increase the excise duty on MGO as well?

There is a lot more in this situation than has been discussed here, and if we as a group are not united then we will only suffer from our ineptitude and inaction.

Current philosophy (both in government and business) seems to be to come up with a badly designed approach to whatever (e.g. call centres) and wait until there is a furore. Witness Hunting with Dogs, and relocating call centres abroad.

See what I mean?

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[scarlett]

Its worse:don\'t bother

It gets worse. Following your post I investigated further. I spoke to a friend who has a narrow boat. Her consumption means that she fills her 30 gallon tank once a year [occasionally, during a busy season, buying a can of full price diesel to top it up!] And she is one of the people in her club that regularly uses their boat as a boat. Of 45 boats in her canal based club, she is in the minority. Most of those who do use their boat go to rallies or on summer holidays. She expects all the narrow boats to be diesel powered.

Logically, to move a narrow boat weighing 60 tonnes, requires about one horse power at the prop. Allowing for inefficientcies even there isn't going to be much fuel consumption. My engine at 5 HP, too fast for a canal, uses 0.4 of a litre an hour. [ At full chat for 20 HP it takes less than 3 litres per hour.] You can't go far on canals without coming to a lock, so even daily consumption isn't going to be that high.

Most river based boats seem to be running on outboards.

Then there is the rented river boat market. Do you expect someone paying a grand for a weeks use of a narrow boat to be too mean to top up a 30 gallon tank that might last him all week? It might cost him £100 but that equates to a days meals for a family at pubs and resturants on the way. I can't see him coming home and joining the campaign.

And it gets worse. There are actually over 200 boats in our marina, mixed 50/50. Of those 8 went out and 8 came in, again a 50/50 mix. On a Sunday. There were 16 cars in the car park when they could have left the lock. Later when the lock closed for low water there were about 25 cars. People resting or doing work by the look of it. Nobody bought any diesel today.

I think the likelyhood of a Red Diesel campaign doing anything but harm, is very remote. If, as someone said, red is high sulphur and white is low, let's do our bit and get rid of it for the sake of the environment at least. Lets pay up and concentrate on something more important.

Now something on compulsory registration, compulsory certificates of competence and an annual licence and insurance [and perhaps a DOT cert] for every boat, as elsewhere, in the UK, would be a retrograde step, for my money. Let's keep the possibility of someone with a bit of spirit but no money, of doing something pleasant with their life.

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[LeytonC]

Re: Its worse:don\'t bother

IMHO i think its of upmost importance that people DO have there say, no matter how bleak things look. The worst thing we can do is 'dont bother'.

I know things dont look that promising, but I AM going to do everying possible to prevent this from happening. Maybe if lots of people help we can get a turn around here. I know (by your very presence here) that you are doing something, but lets not put off other people.



<hr width=100% size=1>Thanks

Leyton
(EXTAR Solutions - Software that works for you)