Renegade_Master
Well-Known Member
indeed
Dave_Snelson
Well-Known Member
Making up rumours? I'm asking questions out of interest. Spain is proving a strange place over the past 3 years - ask anyone with a demolished legitimate property. And metriculation tax on charter boats in the UK? BTW, CAPITAL LETTERS IS DEEMED AS SHOUTING. No need, my hearing is still good!
Dave_Snelson
Well-Known Member
And I know Smir very well. And once you get used to the prices, you won't want to leave. Bloody good facilities as well.
JamesFrance
Well-Known Member
Sorry to shout, not my usual, but it really does not help to spread rumours which have no foundation.
Some of us are keeping our boats there with no problems and do not want the value of our marina berths destroyed by such uninformed posts. Yes I have a personal interest, but no apology for that.
Some of us are keeping our boats there with no problems and do not want the value of our marina berths destroyed by such uninformed posts. Yes I have a personal interest, but no apology for that.
Dave_Snelson
Well-Known Member
No apology needed. Matriculation tax was done on here by Pauline some months ago - but she doesn't charter, to my knowledge. Seems to be some confusion or unambiguity between what is applied by various authorities.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
If you want to get up to speed on the debate (but not a definitve answer) then suggest you go to the same subject on the Liveaboard Forum.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to get up to speed on the debate (but not a definitve answer) then suggest you go to the same subject on the Liveaboard Forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or read the last couple of weeks posts here on this forum.
If you want to get up to speed on the debate (but not a definitve answer) then suggest you go to the same subject on the Liveaboard Forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or read the last couple of weeks posts here on this forum.
Renegade_Master
Well-Known Member
done on here by Pauline some months ago
cant remember that?
cant remember that?
Nick_H
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
IF YOU ARE A PRIVATE NON RESIDENT OWNER OF A BOAT IN SPAIN THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU!
[/ QUOTE ]
How can you be sure? The Spannish goverment is clearly trawling through all its dormant legislation looking for ways to extract more tax revenues from its citizens and visitors. The land grab, the reclaim of moorings and properties at Empuriabrava, and the mat tax being 3 good examples. As Mike points out above, the mat tax legislation was never intended to be used to clobber peopole in his situation, so it's opportunist tax collection by the Spannish authorities. Sorry if your berth value is affected, but I wouldn't move my boat to Spain at the moment even if it was just privately used.
IF YOU ARE A PRIVATE NON RESIDENT OWNER OF A BOAT IN SPAIN THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU!
[/ QUOTE ]
How can you be sure? The Spannish goverment is clearly trawling through all its dormant legislation looking for ways to extract more tax revenues from its citizens and visitors. The land grab, the reclaim of moorings and properties at Empuriabrava, and the mat tax being 3 good examples. As Mike points out above, the mat tax legislation was never intended to be used to clobber peopole in his situation, so it's opportunist tax collection by the Spannish authorities. Sorry if your berth value is affected, but I wouldn't move my boat to Spain at the moment even if it was just privately used.
Nautorius
Well-Known Member
Nick,
I agree with your sentiments. Although I am a non resident and a private user I am sure they could dig out a piece of legislation which may impact us. I doubt it would be put into practice but the risk of having the boat 'impounded' whilst we try to prove our innocence in Spain is not a nice thought.
It will be important to watch this space. Hopefully the initial investigations will be the end of it.
I would prefer to pay the 12% Gib Wealth Tax and have a boat here than risk leaving a big boat in Spain at the moment and await the call from the authorities.
Paul /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
I agree with your sentiments. Although I am a non resident and a private user I am sure they could dig out a piece of legislation which may impact us. I doubt it would be put into practice but the risk of having the boat 'impounded' whilst we try to prove our innocence in Spain is not a nice thought.
It will be important to watch this space. Hopefully the initial investigations will be the end of it.
I would prefer to pay the 12% Gib Wealth Tax and have a boat here than risk leaving a big boat in Spain at the moment and await the call from the authorities.
Paul /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Surely once the mat tax is paid, then the government of Ballearics will still get there take form charter and the mat tax as well, they win both ways. Although surely also charter rates will rise to cvover this tax
[/ QUOTE ]
Colin, no, I think not. Firstly, several charter boats have already left the island before they were seized and, secondly, why would anyone bring their boat to the islands and offer it for charter, when they will have to pay 12% of it's value? So, IMHO, the Balearic charter fleet will reduce in size. Superyacht charter is already very low in the Balearics just because of the matriculation tax issue. In the short term, charter rates might go up but in the long term, the shortage of charter boats will drive many charterers to other places like SoF and Croatia
[ QUOTE ]
If I go to the ballewarics, in my non charter private boat, do I have to pay this tax or get an exemption
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you do not. The key point is the possession of a Spanish charter licence. If you have one, the Customs will have you on their radar. If you don't and, by definition, your boat is solely used for private use, then there is nothing to worry about
Surely once the mat tax is paid, then the government of Ballearics will still get there take form charter and the mat tax as well, they win both ways. Although surely also charter rates will rise to cvover this tax
[/ QUOTE ]
Colin, no, I think not. Firstly, several charter boats have already left the island before they were seized and, secondly, why would anyone bring their boat to the islands and offer it for charter, when they will have to pay 12% of it's value? So, IMHO, the Balearic charter fleet will reduce in size. Superyacht charter is already very low in the Balearics just because of the matriculation tax issue. In the short term, charter rates might go up but in the long term, the shortage of charter boats will drive many charterers to other places like SoF and Croatia
[ QUOTE ]
If I go to the ballewarics, in my non charter private boat, do I have to pay this tax or get an exemption
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you do not. The key point is the possession of a Spanish charter licence. If you have one, the Customs will have you on their radar. If you don't and, by definition, your boat is solely used for private use, then there is nothing to worry about
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Dave, it's based on 12% of the boat's value and the boat's value is determined in one of two ways. If you have bought your boat in Spain and and an invoice exists to confirm it's value, then this value will be used. If you have not bought your boat in Spain, then the Customs will compare the size and type of the boat to others that they know the value of. An important point to note is that once they have established a value at some point in the past, that value will be depreciated at a rate of 11% pa to arrive at it's value today. This is why newish boats will pay a lot more tax than older ones
As to why you should moor your boat in Spain, I must stress again that this only applies to boats offered for charter and not to boats owned by non-residents for private use only. At the same time, Spanish residents still have to pay the tax even if their boat is only used for private use, so, if there is any doubt about residency ie living more than 183 days pa in Spain, then the tax may be an issue too.
Overall, I suspect that the matriculation tax issue may affect boating in general in Spain. Non-residents will start to think that if they levy the tax on Spanish residents and non-Spanish residents offering their boats for charter, will they eventually try to levy the tax on non-Spanish residents who only use their boats privately? At the moment, there are no indications of this but who knows what a Spanish govt desperate for tax revenues might do in the future?
As to why you should moor your boat in Spain, I must stress again that this only applies to boats offered for charter and not to boats owned by non-residents for private use only. At the same time, Spanish residents still have to pay the tax even if their boat is only used for private use, so, if there is any doubt about residency ie living more than 183 days pa in Spain, then the tax may be an issue too.
Overall, I suspect that the matriculation tax issue may affect boating in general in Spain. Non-residents will start to think that if they levy the tax on Spanish residents and non-Spanish residents offering their boats for charter, will they eventually try to levy the tax on non-Spanish residents who only use their boats privately? At the moment, there are no indications of this but who knows what a Spanish govt desperate for tax revenues might do in the future?
Dave_Snelson
Well-Known Member
Yeah, she explained that she had been approached by the authorities and that she was none too concerned because the formula used was not a straight 12% of the boats value but 12% of summink else - but I can't remember what?
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
James, I don't know whether you were referring to my posts as uninformed but, if you were, I will point out that my boat has been caught in this matriculation tax purge and, because of that, I have investigated this issue in depth and taken legal advice in the Balearics so I am confident that what I have stated in this thread is correct. In fact I wish I wasn't correct because the whole thing is costing me a lot of money.
I have chosen my words carefully because I did not want to start scare stories about matriculation tax and I have said on several occasions that any owner who does not charter his boat in Spain or have a Spanish charter licence will have nothing to worry about although, as stated in another post of mine, I am aware of at least 2 non charter foreign flagged boats in the Balearics being boarded recently by the Guardia Civile and being asked to prove that matriculation tax was not payable. This was definitely over zealous bureacracy but it happened all the same
As to the value of your berth in S Carles, I suspect that the future value will depend far more on the attractions of S Carles rather than the matriculation tax issue
I have chosen my words carefully because I did not want to start scare stories about matriculation tax and I have said on several occasions that any owner who does not charter his boat in Spain or have a Spanish charter licence will have nothing to worry about although, as stated in another post of mine, I am aware of at least 2 non charter foreign flagged boats in the Balearics being boarded recently by the Guardia Civile and being asked to prove that matriculation tax was not payable. This was definitely over zealous bureacracy but it happened all the same
As to the value of your berth in S Carles, I suspect that the future value will depend far more on the attractions of S Carles rather than the matriculation tax issue
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Knowing James, Mike, I'm sure he wasnt referring to you.
Like me, he just doesnt want to get this whole affair out of proportion.
When we bought the new boat, I looked into this matter very carefully. Indeed, you and I even exchanged some PMs to help me with the decision. After very careful consideration, I decided that the best way to go was private (non commercial) ownership. It seems, at the moment, (and I dont want to tempt fate) that I was right to take this line but I agree with James that any scaremongering must affect the value of our investment in the new marina which, incidentally, is maturing very nicely. Having just returned home and soon to be going out again, it is becoming a really great corner of Spain with a very local Spannish feeling. I dont know but I dont think there are many commercially registered vessels in Sant Carles (if any at all).
Like me, he just doesnt want to get this whole affair out of proportion.
When we bought the new boat, I looked into this matter very carefully. Indeed, you and I even exchanged some PMs to help me with the decision. After very careful consideration, I decided that the best way to go was private (non commercial) ownership. It seems, at the moment, (and I dont want to tempt fate) that I was right to take this line but I agree with James that any scaremongering must affect the value of our investment in the new marina which, incidentally, is maturing very nicely. Having just returned home and soon to be going out again, it is becoming a really great corner of Spain with a very local Spannish feeling. I dont know but I dont think there are many commercially registered vessels in Sant Carles (if any at all).
JamesFrance
Well-Known Member
Hi Mike,
No I was certainly not referring to you, as I have followed your reports on this thread and others very carefully. I was very sorry to hear about your problems.
I was concerned to see a suggestion being introduced that this could also apply to private non-resident owners, in a topic which has been about charter use and Spanish residence.
Have a look at the recent posts on the liveaboard forum to see the advice given by the Barcelona law firm specialising in this area.
One point of particular interest is that they say they can obtain exemption from the tax if that is applied for before someone becomes resident. That is exactly the same as applies to the importation of previously owned cars, so is what I would expect to be the case.
No I was certainly not referring to you, as I have followed your reports on this thread and others very carefully. I was very sorry to hear about your problems.
I was concerned to see a suggestion being introduced that this could also apply to private non-resident owners, in a topic which has been about charter use and Spanish residence.
Have a look at the recent posts on the liveaboard forum to see the advice given by the Barcelona law firm specialising in this area.
One point of particular interest is that they say they can obtain exemption from the tax if that is applied for before someone becomes resident. That is exactly the same as applies to the importation of previously owned cars, so is what I would expect to be the case.
John100156
Well-Known Member
Whilst I have of course been following this thread with great interest, I still believe that as a private individual, non-resident, never having chartered, I am perfectly safe with my boat berthed here in Spain and confident I will not be pursued for MT or a Ex/Cert.
Just in case there are any individuals with hearing difficulties:
HAS ANY PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL, NON-RESIDENT, NON-CHARTERING, BOAT OWNER, BERTHED IN SPAIN, EVER BEEN ASKED, PECINTO'D, OR PAID THIS TAX?
I expect the answer is NO!
And in my ignorant state of bliss, I do believe this will remain so.
To use the vernacular: I AINT BOTHERED! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Just in case there are any individuals with hearing difficulties:
HAS ANY PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL, NON-RESIDENT, NON-CHARTERING, BOAT OWNER, BERTHED IN SPAIN, EVER BEEN ASKED, PECINTO'D, OR PAID THIS TAX?
I expect the answer is NO!
And in my ignorant state of bliss, I do believe this will remain so.
To use the vernacular: I AINT BOTHERED! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Nick_H
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
HAS ANY PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL, NON-RESIDENT, NON-CHARTERING, BOAT OWNER, BERTHED IN SPAIN, EVER BEEN ASKED, PECINTO'D, OR PAID THIS TAX?
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your concern about your berth value (although i'm not sure a thread on here will really dent them that much) but with the aggressive approach being taken by the Spannish authorities on the other issues I mentioned, I can't see why you're so confident that private non residential boat owners wont be targetted. The local authorities in some ports on the Cote d'Azur tried something similar about 3 yrs ago. They saw the amount of money changing hands for the sale of berths and decided they wanted some of it. They cited a local law that the mayor must approve berth transfers, so imposed a tax for him to do so. This was challenged succesfully in the courts by some of the ports, but there was still a stalemate for about 18 months where no-one could buy or sell berths in Antibes or some other ports controlled by local authorties.
HAS ANY PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL, NON-RESIDENT, NON-CHARTERING, BOAT OWNER, BERTHED IN SPAIN, EVER BEEN ASKED, PECINTO'D, OR PAID THIS TAX?
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your concern about your berth value (although i'm not sure a thread on here will really dent them that much) but with the aggressive approach being taken by the Spannish authorities on the other issues I mentioned, I can't see why you're so confident that private non residential boat owners wont be targetted. The local authorities in some ports on the Cote d'Azur tried something similar about 3 yrs ago. They saw the amount of money changing hands for the sale of berths and decided they wanted some of it. They cited a local law that the mayor must approve berth transfers, so imposed a tax for him to do so. This was challenged succesfully in the courts by some of the ports, but there was still a stalemate for about 18 months where no-one could buy or sell berths in Antibes or some other ports controlled by local authorties.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Mike, I don't see that the mat tax issue will affect S Carles. It is only in the main charter areas like the Balearics and the Costa del Sol that there will be boats caught up in this although, potentially, in the Balearics it could be hundreds of boats that are investigated as there are many owners like me who try to do a bit of charter. The irony is that the income that I've gained in 3 yrs chartering in Mallorca is far less than the mat tax I will have to pay so your decision not to set up as a commercial operation was absolutely correct as I dread to think what the mat tax + fine + interest on your boat would work out to be /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
John, I don't know why you and James are SHOUTING? Is this a S Carles thing as in there's so few people there you have to shout to hail your neighbour /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Nobody has suggested that you as a non-resident owner using your boat privately is liable for matriculation tax. Thats been made clear on several posts of mine and others so I don't see your point in making it again, particularly in such an aggressive manner
