StellaGirl
Well-Known Member
Interesting post on another forum about the Bavaria keel issues...
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=54205#post54205
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=54205#post54205
More on the Bavaria keel problems...
- Thread starter StellaGirl
- Start date
ParaHandy
Well-Known Member
interesting that within 8 working days of the accident, bavaria had drawn the modification (9 May 05) to the hull where the keel is attached .. it would appear not to have needed much investigation although they are still claiming that there's nothing wrong (with the original design or construction) ....
StellaGirl
Well-Known Member
the whole thing stinks if you ask me.....
nct1
Well-Known Member
This seems to be a puzzle to me.
Rather than talking about how Bavaria has failed to resolve customer problems, we could be talking about how well they have treated their customers.
In the past I have purchased several cars of the same make, whose prices were keen, but were not necessarily the best quality you could buy. However, whenever I had a problem, the garage/manufacturer did their utmost to solve the problem and get me on the road again ASAP. I purchased from the same manufacturer time after time.
Is this a central european problem I wonder, there are a few "This is the last Merc I buy" web sites out there.
People will forgive flawed products if the dealer/manufacturer will give support.
Rather than talking about how Bavaria has failed to resolve customer problems, we could be talking about how well they have treated their customers.
In the past I have purchased several cars of the same make, whose prices were keen, but were not necessarily the best quality you could buy. However, whenever I had a problem, the garage/manufacturer did their utmost to solve the problem and get me on the road again ASAP. I purchased from the same manufacturer time after time.
Is this a central european problem I wonder, there are a few "This is the last Merc I buy" web sites out there.
People will forgive flawed products if the dealer/manufacturer will give support.
ParaHandy
Well-Known Member
"This seems to be a puzzle to me."
Surely not .. ?
Surely not .. ?
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
Forgive me, but isnt there a difference between the keel falling off a boat and a car breaking down on the M25?
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
As fatalities were involved in one of the incidents there are a few who will not forgive this if indeed it is caused by a flawed product.
Bavaria Yachts seem to be suffering to some extent from there own success. Economies of scale and efficient product incorporating easy buildability can only go so far. Ultimately savings can then only be achieved by using less material. I once compared boats by £ per kg rather than cost per foot of length.
By careful structural anaylsis and consistancy of strength of materials boat builders legitimately have reduced the weight of modern boats. Whether this particular problem will be proved to be an example of a step too far only time will tell.
It is funny to see adverts for production boats extolling their age as a virtue as it indicates a more substantial construction.
Bavaria have done an outstanding job of drastically bringing down the cost of new boats and introducing many first time buyers to big boat sailing. It is reasonable for every buyer to expect a safe boat but unrealistic to compare them with much more expensive boats.
I do hope this mess gets sorted out for everyones benefit as quickly as possible and my thoughts are with the families affected by this failure.
It is said we get the politicians we deserve likewise we get the boats we are prepared to buy!!
Bavaria Yachts seem to be suffering to some extent from there own success. Economies of scale and efficient product incorporating easy buildability can only go so far. Ultimately savings can then only be achieved by using less material. I once compared boats by £ per kg rather than cost per foot of length.
By careful structural anaylsis and consistancy of strength of materials boat builders legitimately have reduced the weight of modern boats. Whether this particular problem will be proved to be an example of a step too far only time will tell.
It is funny to see adverts for production boats extolling their age as a virtue as it indicates a more substantial construction.
Bavaria have done an outstanding job of drastically bringing down the cost of new boats and introducing many first time buyers to big boat sailing. It is reasonable for every buyer to expect a safe boat but unrealistic to compare them with much more expensive boats.
I do hope this mess gets sorted out for everyones benefit as quickly as possible and my thoughts are with the families affected by this failure.
It is said we get the politicians we deserve likewise we get the boats we are prepared to buy!!
Sammo
Well-Known Member
Yes, but I wonder if you will be so forgiving if you were driving down the autobahn at 100 mph and you were overtaken by your rear offside wheel.
There`s about 150 of these boats sold, they should stop tap-dancing and contact all the owners to arrange a survey. If the keels are cracking up or falling off then there’s obviously something very wrong with the way they`re put together.
.......
There`s about 150 of these boats sold, they should stop tap-dancing and contact all the owners to arrange a survey. If the keels are cracking up or falling off then there’s obviously something very wrong with the way they`re put together.
.......
Norman_E
Well-Known Member
It would certainly scare me off buying one, especially the news from a scandinavian buyer, which indicates that his boat came pretty close to parting with its keel.
Stevie_T
Well-Known Member
And where is the Recreational Craft Directive in all of this?
Bavaria's presumably have their CE mark is this not supposed to be a mark of quality /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Bavaria's presumably have their CE mark is this not supposed to be a mark of quality /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I suspect the reason that Bav is less than forthcoming is that a death has been involved and there may be a substantial damage claim waiting in the wings. If so, the last thing it is going to do is to admit any liability.
nct1
Well-Known Member
A famous US car manufacturer thought it cheaper to have a few claims for fatalities than to fix the design flaw with the fuel tank. Similar attitude I guess.
The point I was trying to make was that if Bavaria had been seen to react quickly to the problem with a good solution, then this could have given future prospective buyers some comfort, but as it stands, it is a huge own goal.
The point I was trying to make was that if Bavaria had been seen to react quickly to the problem with a good solution, then this could have given future prospective buyers some comfort, but as it stands, it is a huge own goal.
nct1
Well-Known Member
If Bavaria had recalled the product when the first reports of cracking were received, then I guess we would not be discussing this, and maybe there would not have been any fatalities.
You are correct, you cannot forgive their actions as many will not, I was bemoaning the attitude some manufacturers when there are product related problems, they could just as easily turn a negative into a positive by their approach.
You are correct, you cannot forgive their actions as many will not, I was bemoaning the attitude some manufacturers when there are product related problems, they could just as easily turn a negative into a positive by their approach.
nct1
Well-Known Member
I totally agree, the attitude should be one of speedy solution rather than pretending there is no problem, and I agree with you that where safety is concerned, this should be of paramount concern.
My point was, that some car manufacturers have got the message with respect to fixing faulty products and some have not. In my experience you can accept the some price/performance compromises if the manufacturer is not inclined to take the "its your problem" attitude, however I repeat where safety is concerned this should never be the case.
If Bavaria had done a recall, with a good quality fix when problems had first emerged, many more people would have them on their buy list, and the dealers would not be offering significant discounts now.
My point was, that some car manufacturers have got the message with respect to fixing faulty products and some have not. In my experience you can accept the some price/performance compromises if the manufacturer is not inclined to take the "its your problem" attitude, however I repeat where safety is concerned this should never be the case.
If Bavaria had done a recall, with a good quality fix when problems had first emerged, many more people would have them on their buy list, and the dealers would not be offering significant discounts now.
nct1
Well-Known Member
Not sure what your point is ?
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Some problems are easier to fix than others (Doh!) ..I really do not envy whoever gets lumbered with retrofitting the modifications to this particular one , particularly as there has clearly been a very significant degree of flexure in all the exisitng mouldings.
I have done such repair/reinforcement to a grounding casualty that I bought some years back .For peace of mind ,out came the whole interior and all of the cabin inner liner,in went 50 sq metres of new hull laminate, a grid across the whole belly ,and new stringers ,bulkhead and bigger keel backing piece .Incidentally it was well worth the effort ,we had incredible forestay tension and a very strong and stiff hull once done.
I have done such repair/reinforcement to a grounding casualty that I bought some years back .For peace of mind ,out came the whole interior and all of the cabin inner liner,in went 50 sq metres of new hull laminate, a grid across the whole belly ,and new stringers ,bulkhead and bigger keel backing piece .Incidentally it was well worth the effort ,we had incredible forestay tension and a very strong and stiff hull once done.
[ QUOTE ]
particularly as there has clearly been a very significant degree of flexure in all the existing mouldings.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Match 35's appear to be exempt from development of these problems so far. Or perhaps you were referring to all moldings within a specific afflicted yacht?
[ QUOTE ]
For peace of mind ,out came the whole interior and all of the cabin inner liner,in went 50 sq metres of new hull laminate, a grid across the whole belly ,and new stringers
[/ QUOTE ]
I will try to upload some pictures of the GRP grid structure that takes the keel load in my Match 35. Having seen this I hope you would agree the grid does not require enhancement, the challenge is to introduce more effective bonding the internal hull skin to the grid and then distribute keel bolt loads over a larger area with replacement metal ribs as indicated in the J&J design mod.
particularly as there has clearly been a very significant degree of flexure in all the existing mouldings.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Match 35's appear to be exempt from development of these problems so far. Or perhaps you were referring to all moldings within a specific afflicted yacht?
[ QUOTE ]
For peace of mind ,out came the whole interior and all of the cabin inner liner,in went 50 sq metres of new hull laminate, a grid across the whole belly ,and new stringers
[/ QUOTE ]
I will try to upload some pictures of the GRP grid structure that takes the keel load in my Match 35. Having seen this I hope you would agree the grid does not require enhancement, the challenge is to introduce more effective bonding the internal hull skin to the grid and then distribute keel bolt loads over a larger area with replacement metal ribs as indicated in the J&J design mod.
Cornishman
Well-Known Member
I went to Bavaria a couple of times, and I can understand why they have keel problems there.
hairbox
Well-Known Member
Why's that then ? please give us your expert opinion
StugeronSteve
Well-Known Member
I think Cornishman is making a little geographical joke.
