More help please

[cynthia]

Follow up to Telephone Quote.

Sent the cheque for the price agreed over the phone, it's been returned by the dealer with a threat of legal action if we don't settle the amount he has deemed suitable.

Encouraging results in terms of written quotes from other dealers, but now seeking to question materials used.

Scenario:

Engine: Volvo 2002
Year: 2001

All services carried out (by said dealer and paid for.)
Last service carried out before boat taken out of water.
Maximum of 15 hours engine time after service.

Winterisation carried out on hard standing (not engine dealer's premises, but approx. 300 yards from his business.)

For Winterisation only, does anyone know:
a) The amount and type of coolant that should be used. (Closed system i.e. not raw water cooling).
b) The cost per litre of this type of coolant.
c) The relevant costs for inhibiting oil, grease and anti-corrosion spray.
c) The number of hours involved in this type of service.


If anyone has precise costs of Winterisation only, this too would be extremely valuable.

Thanks in advance,

Cynthia

P.s. If we sent the cheque back 'without prejudice', which would be in line with out policy of paying small local firms quickly for services rendered, can we do this without jeopardising his 'right' to pursue this through the courts?
I would prefer it if only his business practices were bad, not mine!

 

[Guest]

If he was to receive a cheque "without prejudice" and deposit it, then the amount by which he would be out of would be less incentive to commence legal action.

However, he can always put a lien on your boat ... and he will certainly have the last laugh. Marine law treats debts differently, you see, becaus eit's the boat which incurs the debt.

(Lawyers: if this is a load of bollocks in the UK then please say so)

 

[mtb]

I dont know what engine you have so I have gone for diesel
So lets talk about the high end for the materials
Antifreeze ,trade buy it in 5 gallon quantities I paid under £28.00 for the stuff I got at Christmas . Even using high % of a/f to water 2.5 gallons would be about tops.
grease not more than £3.00 and that is including ( stern tube) rudder water pump cable ends and if out drive pivots
Tin of WD40 £4.00 for a big tin, you wont use a whole tin
Engine oil again brought in Quantities properly 45 gallon drum ,depends on what oil and which manufacturer but surely not more than £15.00 a gallon
Filters easy ring a dealer to get their price ,but if yours has had after market parts put on then ring Partco give them the filter numbers to get the price .

Hours ,well you start the engine ,then while its warming up check over other items such as batteries ,grease up check steering lights ,engine still warming Check fuel lines look for any signs of leaks
stand up then clean hands dream up a bill !!
Any way cut engine pump out oil ,if your a very posh service agent keep a sample to analyse for service report
Change filters clean fuel pump filter if early type , check injection pump top up oil if needed
grease bearings on waterpump check and or adjust belts ,check wirering connections and wires are in good order.
Check and adjust tappets if early type
check over engine for signs of leaks
check gearbox oil connections / out drive
top up oil check bellows if out drive renew anodes on out drive
Check engine coolant with hydrometer top up as necessary ( change every two years )
check and clean main water inlet filter check gate valves are in good order by opening closing a few times
Check throttle/gearbox/outdrive connections are ajusted correctely
start engine check no leaks from filter cut engine check dip stick
change engine anode if any, check hose connections and hoses ,I use a pressure tester to make sure water system is good
Final job clean engine with rag before spraying over with WD40
write out bill with a big grin on face .
It never took me very long to service an engine ,I used to go into marina's to service engines after hours because of the rip off prices
It does not take very long if
1, the engine has been maintained to a high standard
2, the engine has no faults to diagnose or repair
3, the customer is not there , if they are then of course much longer
Your problem is to prove how long he spent what he did what he didn't do if the engine has not been used then you can check to see if new parts are fitted and that's about it .
You knew his hourly rate before he started ,had you used him before
It will be very hard to win in court unless you find parts charged for were not changed then of course the hours charged are wrong .
Unless you are present when work is carried out it's always a problem.
Hope this is some use
Mick

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boats
I want a big steel ex trawler / tug v/cheep or swap for tug

 

[kimhollamby]

The point about the possibility of an action against the boat (ie 'arresting' it by placing a writ on its mast) is UK relevant.

Associate Publisher ybw.com websites kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[chrisc]

Surely there is no need to change the cooling water,
that is precisely why it includes inhibitors.

 

[steve_cronin]

Cynthia,

Hope all is well (apart from this episode) with you and yours. Due to father's illness we ahvn't been out to Greece since November so Mary Flavin sits on her mooring doing nothing!

I always do these jobs myself - even though the management company looking after this boat are supposed to do it (nothing wrong with duplication!)

I do it :-

1. To make sure that it gets done properly.

2. Because I don't like being ripped off like I was the one and only time I let a yard do my anti-fouling!

3. I have this principle about not owning any machine unless I know exactly how it works, how to maintain it and how to fix it (that includes this computer system!) Fear of breaking down 100miles from land!!

I would talk to a solicitor on this one and be careful that the dealer doesn't issue a County Court Summons.

I have just put the phone down from talking to a very high worth client who has been refused a mortgage because his Equifax file shows a CCJ with the "summons issued at" address being in the next village. He knew nothing about it.

Advice to ANYONE these days is:- Check your Credit File regularly at:-

Infocheck Equifax
Department 1e
P O Box 3001
Glasgow
G81 2DT

AND

Consumer Affairs Department
Experian Ltd
PO Box 8000
NOTTINGHAM
NG1 5GX

requested in writing (or on websites) and sending £2.00 to each.

Hope it doesn't come to Court but be careful

Keep on Bav-ing!!

Steve Cronin

 

[tcm]

Re: More help please, and kim?

Still not sure if this was a "quote" or an "estimate". If you asked over the phone "how much will it be?" and he said "about x" then 2x is not "about" and you're right, in my humble opinion. If he said "x" then that's the price, fixed. But if he said" ooh gosh could be just anything but we did one for x" then that's very flexy and 2x not utterly unreasonable. imho.

But all this opinion based, to be judged in a court, and hence depends on a court, whether judge recently ripped off boatiwse, hates boaties and so on.

Yard is a tough cookie if he's actually sent back a cheque for the uncontested amount, although you were right to do this, imho. Not sure if a cheque can be sent "without prejudice". His case isn't weakened by you partly paying (although his resolve might well be) and neither is yours, imho. BUT he has no case if your letter says "this cheque is in full and final settlement of the matter and your acceptence closes the matter" or similar words

Best is to try and resolve by phone (so no body language in the way) and you can say nice things like wanting it to be resolved and so on. But then send cheque with accompnayiong letter, registred, keep copy etc etc.

Before then, keep solid notes of EXACTLY what was said, when, to whom you spoke and so on. Because in court, a detailed account is the correct account. At 1035 of Tuesday 9th November I called etc etc. shows you know what's what. For the same reason, all our company cars have instant cameras innem, so we can provide piccies, whereas usually the other side can't - the "characteristic of truth". When was the conversation, to whom did you speak, at what time, date, and how long was the conversation, whjat else happened on that date, world events an so on.

If you can't resolve it and feel strongly, you need a solicitor specialising in marine issues. You'll need to be sure about all the above, and the solicitor won't be able to do a fat lot without a brief and accurate and fact-filled account of who said what and when. Oh, and er try and get a fixed price step by step from the solicitor.

BUT at issue is also how much hassle, what yard man can do with the boat in the meantime, and gut churning worry insted of happy happy boating - a chat with solictior will point you in the right direction - yiou can ask bluintly if worth pursuing, or soddit. For less than a grand, I'd pay and never return. I'd also publish exactly the facts here, with name of yard here. As far as I know , that would be okay, kim?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Cynthia, fight it, or give in, but whatever make sure every boater who might be a customer for this guy knows what happened.

Drop a note through the hatch of every boat in every marina round and about. Let the local yotclub(s) know.

No libel, no vituperation just a bald statement of facts.

Marine engineers who deserve to be in business have gone under, but there's no reason why the bad apples should still be trading.

 

[Guest]

No he can\'t

He can't put a lien against your boat any more than he can mortgage your house. What he can do is, if you fail to pay AND he wins a court order forcing you to pay, AND then you don't pay within the time specified in the court order, he can take enforcement proceedings against any of your assets up to the amount of the debt due. The asset he chose to enforce against might well be the boat.

 

[Guest]

Re: No he can\'t -

Different than in the US then ...

 

[bedouin]

Re: No he can\'t

Are you sure Simon?

I must admit I thought he could. Debts are certainly incurred by the boat, and can therefore go with the boat when it is sold, and I'm sure I read somewhere that a boat/ship could be held pending the payment of any outstanding bills without having to go through the courts.

 

[Guest]

You want, as is mentioned in a reply below, your cheque to be an offer "in full and final settlement" of the amount, so that if he cashes it he's accepted that no more is due.

There's no point in saying that the cheque is "without prejudice". Without prejudice to what? You don't deny that you're liable to him. You just dispute the amount of the liability. Only use the words "without prejudice" if you are going to offer him more than you think you should strictly speaking be liable for.

Make sure that you have set out CLEARLY in written correspondance to him the conversation regarding the estimate/quote. Ask him in the letter why he didn't inform you if the work was going to be more complicated. Ask him for details of the precise amounts and prices and the supplier from which he bought the materials quoted in his bill. There's no need for you to find out that information. If he wants you to pay he can tell you the suppliers and the amounts used and justify them.

If he tries to sue you without providing you with all the information needed to be able to assess his bill, the judge should have no sympathy with him.

Generally speaking a judge will have little sympathy for him if it can be shown that he had no good reason for exceeding an estimate or quote, and didn't let you know that he was going to do so, and/or if he can't justify all the materials used.

 

[Guest]

Re: No he can\'t

OK, a fuller answer:

A lien is something that arises either by operation of law or can be granted by the debtor. It's a form of charge. He can't create one unilaterally. It either already exists automatically as a matter of law, or doesn't.

Unless there's something very funny about maritime law (that's possible), it is not possible to go round seizing people's assets without a court order. There are two ways of seizing their assets. Either first go to court, contest the amount, win and then enforce against assets if the amount isn't paid up. Alternatively, if you think an asset is about to be moved or hidden away, you can get a preliminary court order freezing the asset until the court hears the main action.

I suspect that it is the second of these two that you are thinking about. For example, one of the state owned Russian tall ships a couple of years ago for a while had a court order stopping her from being shifted because someone was owed money if I remember correctly by the Russian government.

The law does not generally allow people to go round seizing people's assets without a court order. Otherwise people could think up bogus claims and use them as excuses to stop people using their assets.

It may be that where a lien has arisen by operation of law, the creditor may want third parties to whom the owner may want to sell the asset have notice that the boat may be subject to a lien. That would be the purpose of the notice as a practical point. It is NOT the same thing as seizing the boat, and is not the creation of a lien over it. It is just a notice, and wouldn't do him much good, or Cynthia much harm, except perhaps for the nailhole!

 

[cynthia]

Dyslexic numbers - engine Volvo 2020

Thanks for the advice. We are actually in a position to obtain maximum bad publicity on this, but don't want to do that if the affair can be settled amicably. The overcharge (x3) is on a relatively small amount of money. Looks like he enjoys threes e.g. 3 times the amount of materials everyone else charges etc. etc. + twice the labour.

I don't really want to get petty, but hate being stung! Will try not to get into a situation where I cut my nose off to spite my face, but ......

Thanks for all the help.