Moody 37/376 buying advice and alternatives?

[ashtead]

If you are a fan of the hobbit tunnel approach after the 346 you might also take a look at an older Najad as I recall they also had this feature btw and have a certain rustic charm based on the ones I looked at shopping around for a replacement boat.

 

[Kelpie]

The big negative of the centre cockpit is when you have a bimini and spray hood - particularly if like me you are a normal sized over 6' and 15 stone! It is very cramped and claustrophobic and the main thing that put me off for hot climate use.

I think this shows why it's important to back up online research with hands on viewings- this boat we saw had a sprayhood and bimini and, perhaps because we have a combined height of about 10ft, we had no problems whatsoever with the cockpit. In fact we were delighted with the visibility from the helm, as we've often struggled to peek over the top of coachroofs.

BTW this months PBO has a review of just these sorts of boats, or rather boats in the size range for liveaboard or long term cruising. Next months will specifically cover Moodys.

Yup, have read Peter's article avidly- looking forward to next month's.

 

[Kelpie]

We were also smitten, after the Berwick it seemed great but, we soon learned differently. Over 4 years of ownership, we did mostly longish trips, delivery from Hamble to Conwy and then each of the next 3 years Conwy down to France and Channel Isles.

The galley and walkway are a pain having to stoop all the time and, the directional stability under sail is very poor. Despite chucking the wheel pilot and installing inboard linear drive on the quadrant, with the slightest change of wind speed it would alter course quicker than the pilot could cope and, looking astern, the wake was more often than not a lazy S. When pressed hard, had to hand steer.

OTOH, the 376 steers like it's on rails can let the pilot do 95% of the steering. Accommodation is better, particularly the galley and, with 2 heads it's better when guests aboard. Suggest you read the PBO/YM "used boat tests", the one for the 346 says something along the lines of "it would alter course for no apparent reason".

That is very valuable knowledge, thank you!
As I've said we're a few years away from making a decision at the moment, so I'm crossing my fingers that our budget- which is currently in 346 territory- will, when the time comes, allow us to go for a 376, or similar.

 

[Tranona]

I and I suggest most centre cockpit boat owners would disagree. I don't find it cramped or claustrophobic and I'm only 2" shorter than you but 3 stone lighter

Well, as I said, we chartered a Moody 37 in Corfu as part of our search and the one thing that all our crew (5 in total) complained about was the cockpit. Of course owners might disagree with me because they bought the boat and adapt to what they have. The next year we chartered a Bav 42 with 6 of us and it was a revelation for usable space This led us to buy the Bav 37 and there is just no comparison with a similar size centre cockpit boat in terms of space, comfort and access to the cockpit and stern for boarding and swimming.

There are always trade offs and it depends on your priorities.

 

[ashtead]

It would seem that the challenge here is that the 376 or a Bavaria CC would meet the Needs of OP and Mrs OP however the budget currently stretches to the 346 currently. I imagine it all turns on if you value being able to fully stretch out on a cockpit seat or not. You might also wish to look at the height and angle of seat backs as they do vary and ease of exiting cockpit with Bimini up from different vessels. If your budget is in the 346 space your choices seem rather limited though in CC unless Westerly attract . Clearly the other Moody contender once budget grows is the late Moody 36 which have always struck me as desirable model on basis you are happy with one heads .

 

[GrahamM376]

It would seem that the challenge here is that the 376 or a Bavaria CC would meet the Needs of OP and Mrs OP

I don't know the Bav so can't comment. The OPs needs are for a couple with children which is very different to Tranona's comment about room for 6 large adults which I agree would be a bit cramped compared to large aft cockpit if that was normal daily use, as with a charter boat. Our centre cockpit is fine for lying full length and very comfortable with 2 guests sailing every day. Different boats suit different purposes/people.

Other options would be HRs and other Scandinavian boats which are very similar to the Moody and Westerly CC designs but far more expensive and with the disadvantage of teak decks which are a negative in hot climates and a real pain in the wallet when needing replacing.

 

[ashtead]

I don't know the Bav so can't comment. The OPs needs are for a couple with children which is very different to Tranona's comment about room for 6 large adults which I agree would be a bit cramped compared to large aft cockpit if that was normal daily use, as with a charter boat. Our centre cockpit is fine for lying full length and very comfortable with 2 guests sailing every day. Different boats suit different purposes/people.

Other options would be HRs and other Scandinavian boats which are very similar to the Moody and Westerly CC designs but far more expensive and with the disadvantage of teak decks which are a negative in hot climates and a real pain in the wallet when needing replacing.

As you say each to their own but if I was sailing again with young children a newer model Bavaria with drop down stern and folding wheel might accommodate canoeing fishing etc more easily , be easier to reverse and push around and being newer might not have so much maintenance. If you have any pets it's also quite handy having a platform for washing them down and boarding .

 

[Tranona]

I don't know the Bav so can't comment. The OPs needs are for a couple with children which is very different to Tranona's comment about room for 6 large adults which I agree would be a bit cramped compared to large aft cockpit if that was normal daily use, as with a charter boat. Our centre cockpit is fine for lying full length and very comfortable with 2 guests sailing every day. Different boats suit different purposes/people.

Other options would be HRs and other Scandinavian boats which are very similar to the Moody and Westerly CC designs but far more expensive and with the disadvantage of teak decks which are a negative in hot climates and a real pain in the wallet when needing replacing.

Did not say it was 6 large adults. It was 5 and only one (me) was "large". All the others which included one of my teenage daughters were "normal". Same group plus another teenager were on the Bav 42 the next year and it was their approval that prompted the purchase of the 37 the following year.

Must stress the boat was never intended to be a full time liveaboard, although we did spend some long periods aboard. So the extra space below offered by some CC boats was not an issue. Plenty of room for the two of us.

The main point I am trying to make is that you have to consider the main expected use and choose your boat accordingly and I don't think there is any doubt that an aft cockpit boat is the choice for most people for living on board in hot climates - particularly in the Med where stern to mooring and swimming off the stern are arguably the two most common daily activities. What seems great viewing a boat in the middle of winter in northern UK, and seen from a background of sailing in that environment is not necessarily a good test for what the boat will be like in Greek or Caribbean anchorage for days on end!

 

[Kelpie]

Having never actually sailed outside of UK/Ireland I appreciate that life aboard might be quite different once we get somewhere warm. But as they say, you don't miss what you've never had, and easy access off the transom is not something I've yet felt the need for. Open transoms give me the heeby jeebies, especially with young children about. Drop down platforms seem like an improvement, but my budget is very unlikely to stretch to boats of that sort of age.

I did suspect this thread might turn into an aft vs centre cockpit debate, and whilst I'm not completely decided either way on that question, it wasn't really the question I was asking.

The big thing that SWMBO and I are in agreement on regarding a future boat is the importance of the galley. Would I be right in thinking that the older styles of boat didn't really prioritise the galley- perhaps because boats were designed for groups of manly men whose culinary skills didn't extend past reheated pies and cups of tea? The galley in the 346 was probably the biggest let down, a bigger problem than the lack of headroom in the walk though. We've been studying photos and plans of other CC boats (and a few non CC) and the more affordable, i.e. older, ones do tend to have poor galleys. The Moody 36 and most of the Westerlies seem to fall into this category.

Newer boats of course are not just more expensive, but also more likely to have some of those modern 'improvements' that I dislike such as spade rudders and sail drives. Cockpit locker space also tends to be a bit tight on newer boats. I'm not a luddite but it's going to take a lot of persuasion (preferably in a different thread!) for me to accept what I consider the downsides of newer boat designs (sorry, Tranona )

 

[Tranona]

Your observations remind me of myself 20 years ago when I first started to consider a bigger boat for more adventurous sailing. Like you I had (in fact still have) an old style long keel boat which was great. I even lived aboard for a year while working away. I was convinced a Westerly or Moody CC was what I needed with initial plan to work slowly south in the few years before retirement. Even got close to buying a run down 33 to do up - what I could afford at the time, but sensibly decided I wanted a working boat so should save up to buy one.

As part of the preparation we started chartering in the Med, partly to learn what it was like out there and partly because it was fun. As I explain above tried different boats including the then top of the list Moody, but quickly realised that was not the sort of boat that was suitable. To be fair, by that time we had decided the passage making was not going to happen, mainly because my wife preferred the Med style of sailing and partly because my job was demanding and I was spending long periods travelling.

As I have already explained the Bav 42 was a revelation for all sorts of reasons. Sufficient to immediately look at ways of owning one. I chose a charter management deal which was financially achievable and in the end the good deal I expected. It was out on charter eventually for 7 seasons and we used it 2 or 3 times a year. It performed faultlessly (or as near as a boat can being used 22 weeks non stop a year) and then we took it over and started to spend more time on it. Unfortunately fate called and I got cancer, so with an uncertain future sailed it back to UK.

My experience with the boat over 13 years (which is much the same as other owners) is nothing less than excellent. It contradicts all your concerns about modern boats. Nothing serious broke except for the saildrive which seized after 3500 hours - direct consequence of all those inexperienced charterers whacking from forwards to reverse 3 or 4 times a day! This, by the way is not typical of saildrives. When I sold it in 2015 the buyer was looking for a family boat for the Med. They had cruised the Med in a Moody CC before their children came along and said never again for all the reasons I have explained. He is a shipwright and specifically wanted a modern boat for simplicity and ease of maintenance. Boat is now in southern Spain.

Don't get me wrong. I love old boats and can't wait to get mine back in the water this year, but in practical terms, modern boats are streets ahead. As you might have seen I have now bought a new Bavaria because I now have my medical issues fixed and can look forward to a few years more sailing, but not travelling far.

Many of your concerns will disappear when you get down to the practicalities. For example an open transom style is not a worry. Many have slot in wash boards or you can fit them. You might consider taking a charter holiday somewhere benign like the Ionian with your children. You will learn a lot and appreciate why open transoms are so valuable - and have a great holiday at the same time.

I appreciate that with your size budget you don't have the same choice as me, but I think once you get to the point of actually buying you will find a 2000s AWB far better value than a 1980's older style boat. It is no coincidence that AWBs sell in the thousands rather than the low hundreds - they are just better matched to the way people actually use their boats (and typically have better galleys with things like big fridges as standard!).

Good luck with your dreaming (you have to do that) and your planning.

 

[Kelpie]

@Tranona- I do really appreciate the advice and the insight. And I thank you for taking the time to share you point of view. However I don't really want to drag this thread into a discussion about AWB vs MAB, CC vs AC, and any other issues.

You're correct that we are at the dreaming stage. But it's been a dream ten years in the making, with a heck of a lot of reading, research, and poking our noses about other people's boats. And there's been a fair bit of sailing too, on the two yachts we've owned plus a couple of delivery trips and a few trips (plus my day skipper course) on a SO42DS which is the only AWB that we have sailed to date. I've spent summers living aboard through the week, and we've had three week long trips around the west coast and Ireland. All of this has led me to my wish list for a new boat, and my expectations about how it will be used.

It's going to be strong and simple, with a skeg hung rudder and a shaft drive, and without any sort of extreme design features.
It's going to have two decent cabins providing privacy for a pair of short people plus their child (singular). It doesn't need to accommodate additional visiting couples, or host parties.
It's going to have a wind vane on the back and a decent amount of solar panels.
It'll have good water tankage.
It's not going to frequent marinas very often, due to budget and inclination, so handling under power isn't a priority.
It's going to be able to carry a decent dinghy (probably on the foredeck).
It's going to have a good galley, because we both love cooking and don't expect to eat out all that often.
It's going to be an all rounder, capable of taking us pretty much anywhere we want to go- not a Med only machine.



So, to get back on topic, so far the M376 is topping the list. I don't know what the motion of the CC is like under way, and I'm concerned that there will be a babystay intruding into the foredeck space. But nothing is perfect.

 

[duncan99210]

For what it's worth, our experience in terms of how we use the boat as a live aboard is very different to how we used it before we set off.
Before we set off, we were mainly focused on sailing. By that I mean that when we had time to be on the boat, we tended to spend our time sailing from point a to point b, stopping a night or two then moving on again. We lived mainly down below when at anchor or in a marina. We ate aboard rarely and simply. Given the Northern European climate, swimming didn't feature and mooring was typically alongside or on a finger berth. So, space in the cockpit wasn't an issue nor was access to the stern.
Same heading down the through Biscay but by the time we were in the Spanish Rias, things were beginning to change. We spent more and more time in the cockpit and on deck and less time below because of the climate. Stern access also became important as we spent more time at anchor: its much easier to board a dinghy from the sugar scoop and swimming suddenly enters the equation.
Once in the Med, virtually all berthing is stern or bow to. Only occasionally will you be encounter finger berths allowing boarding over the side, therefore an accessible stern becomes a real boon. Of course you can berth bow to but that means boarding over the pulpit, always something of a challenge.
Another point to think about if going further south than say northern Spain, then shade becomes a significant problem. You need a large bimini which can remain rigged when sailing.
So, whether one chooses a centre or aft cockpit is moot but I'd be looking for an accessible stern for ease of boarding when stern to, dinghy boarding and swimming. I'd also want the ability to rig a bimini over the cockpit area at all times to provide shade.

 

[GrahamM376]

So, whether one chooses a centre or aft cockpit is moot but I'd be looking for an accessible stern for ease of boarding when stern to, dinghy boarding and swimming. I'd also want the ability to rig a bimini over the cockpit area at all times to provide shade.

Good advice. Use does change when it's around 40 degrees and we didn't prepare the boat well enough before leaving UK. It had been fine for holiday trips south but when it's the daily norm, a different matter. We could have bought a new Bav/Ben etc at the time if we had wanted but didn't like them. We chose the 376 over the 37 as it has a scoop/step on the transom whereas the 37 has just a ladder so I have no problem wearing scuba tanks or boarding from dinghy. Have a two part bimini, normally when sailing just the one over the steering position and aft cockpit is used but when motoring or at anchor we have a second one which parks around the sprayhood and joins to the forward edge of the other, giving us cover from the companionway aft. The aft one also serves as roof for the cockpit tent. With dinghy and solar on a gantry, we berth bows to when in marinas so have replaced the original Moody pulpit with a step through.

Aft or centre cockpit is a matter of personal choice and it's silly for anyone to say either isn't suitable or, that they should buy a newer boat when the budget isn't there. We associate with lots of liveaboards using both types and all prices. With forward opening hatches, we get plenty of airflow throughout when at anchor and wouldn't want to be without the aft cabin with standing height. Plenty of room up top or below for entertaining.

Although the OP specifically asked about the 376, the older Angus Primrose designs are also worth looking at, plenty of those still doing good service long distances - and cheaper. As they say on TV - "other makes are available"

 

[Bobc]

I think that the interesting take-away from the posts above, is that your boat will become less of a sailing vessel and more of a home, and you need to think about it in that sense. Not so much "what would I like to sail", but more "what would I like to live on in a warm climate".

 

[GrahamM376]

I think that the interesting take-away from the posts above, is that your boat will become less of a sailing vessel and more of a home, and you need to think about it in that sense. Not so much "what would I like to sail", but more "what would I like to live on in a warm climate".

You're spot on in our case, the boat moves when we're going somewhere, very rarely day sail.

 

[RupertW]

You're spot on in our case, the boat moves when we're going somewhere, very rarely day sail.

Even for us still working, therefore taking a week off a few times a year and one longer cruise then the boat is still far more a floating hot climate home than a sailing vessel.

We do enjoy the sailing between anchorages most days including the very vigourous ones and try to hone our beating and colourful sails, but most of the time is either at anchor or under motor and we live outside so even with two of us a big cockpit is vital as that is our undercover living room and dining room. We would have died for the great big table inside with surrounding sofas in our UK sailing days but it's rather a waste for most of the year.

So for swimming and stepping off the boat walkthrough and big cockpit are the most important requirements followed by two heads and multiple cabins so that guests have privacy.

If I didn't feel safe and under control in bad weather none of the above would matter but I do in an aft cockpit AWB.

 

[sailaboutvic]

We lived on AC and now a CC both have there good and bad points,
As full time liveaboard we find speed no longer matter , we get there when we get there.
One of he most important part for us is a good size comfort cabin to sleep in where we haven't got to climb in and out our bunks as if we in coffin, and a CC boat give us just that,
Of cause mooring stern too as we do, an CC boat do have its disadvantages although we have found ways around this .
Sailing in heavy seas as we do some times , we feel much safer in a CC boat, less room to be thrown around, socialise even tho we can easily sit six in the cockpit at squeeze 8 there not much room to move but it never stopped us inviting 8 on board , plus there room for others to sit on the stern cabin and still be able to join in the conversation, we also tend to remove the wheel to give us that bit more room,

Bimini is a must if you sailing in hot climates the wider the better with sun shades, we not found to be a problem with CC although we make all our own canvas work.
Another important thing is how much water you can carry, now in all the years we been living aboard we never had a problem finding water without paying to go into a Marina to fill up our tanks, but we have to carry it most of the time, last year I build a water maker , it wasn't cheap 2k but it make a world of different to us , 100 lts an hour means we don't have to worry about water, I no longer have to carry it, we know it good water and we can also drink it and don't have to buy bottle water, ok I agree it's expensive water but it getting cheaper each time we use it.
Being an CC boat mean it we want there room to put the dinghy over the deck on the stern, or use that area to sun bath.
Having had both CC and AC as a liveaboard I would now not go back to AC boats.

 

[RupertW]

We lived on AC and now a CC both have there good and bad points,
As full time liveaboard we find speed no longer matter , we get there when we get there.
One of he most important part for us is a good size comfort cabin to sleep in where we haven't got to climb in and out our bunks as if we in coffin, and a CC boat give us just that,
Of cause mooring stern too as we do, an CC boat do have its disadvantages although we have found ways around this .
Sailing in heavy seas as we do some times , we feel much safer in a CC boat, less room to be thrown around, socialise even tho we can easily sit six in the cockpit at squeeze 8 there not much room to move but it never stopped us inviting 8 on board , plus there room for others to sit on the stern cabin and still be able to join in the conversation, we also tend to remove the wheel to give us that bit more room,

Bimini is a must if you sailing in hot climates the wider the better with sun shades, we not found to be a problem with CC although we make all our own canvas work.
Another important thing is how much water you can carry, now in all the years we been living aboard we never had a problem finding water without paying to go into a Marina to fill up our tanks, but we have to carry it most of the time, last year I build a water maker , it wasn't cheap 2k but it make a world of different to us , 100 lts an hour means we don't have to worry about water, I no longer have to carry it, we know it good water and we can also drink it and don't have to buy bottle water, ok I agree it's expensive water but it getting cheaper each time we use it.
Being an CC boat mean it we want there room to put the dinghy over the deck on the stern, or use that area to sun bath.
Having had both CC and AC as a liveaboard I would now not go back to AC boats.

Wow -although I've never imagined giving up the convenience of giving up space in my big outdoor living room or stepping down six feet from my front door to the pavement or swimming pool, this post from you with your experience makes me think

 

[Tranona]

Wow -although I've never imagined giving up the convenience of giving up space in my big outdoor living room or stepping down six feet from my front door to the pavement or swimming pool, this post from you with your experience makes me think

It is all a matter of size as I have pointed out earlier. Vic has a 44 for 2 people, and when you get that size a lot of the issues of space go away, particularly on deck although there was a tendency in the past to then pack as much in as you could in terms of cabins and gear. My gripe with the boats in the 36/8' size with CC is they are too cramped and what is there is not what is needed for your type of use (as you have described it) nor mine.

This is less of an issue for a couple who are going sailing to get to places and the place is a stop on the way as opposed to spending most time at anchor with short passages to change anchorages. a good example to illustrate this is in the article on bluewater boats in this month's PBO where several of the people featured were doing long passages of several thousand miles between stops and going to the more out of the way places. Therefore they advocated boats like Nicholson 38, Rival 38 etc which are much more suited to that type of use, but not so attractive for the more laid back lifestyle of the typical Med cruiser.

 

[GrahamM376]

My gripe with the boats in the 36/8' size with CC is they are too cramped and what is there is not what is needed for your type of use (as you have described it) nor mine.

In the opinion of owners of CC boats that size, HR, Najad, Malo, Moody, Westerly etc., which are all very similar layout but different qualities, they are ideal for what they want. Why can't you get it into your head that not everyone wants or likes Bavarias?