Med boaters - will you get to your boat this year?

[Hooligan]

I would be more concerned about the paperwork and regulations regarding keeping detailed logs for British flagged boats. I think this is going to be more of an issue across the Med. the problem short term is a combo of Brexit (the best divorces are never pleasant short term) and corona virus and the (false) impression that the UK’s vax programme supports the reason to leave ie rubs it in. This causes moronic lame duck leaders (Merkel) or Napoleon wannabes (Macron - who also has an election issue himself to compound matters) to use politics to divert attention - it is the UK’s fault that the European vax programme is so far behind and btw their vax is dangerous for you. Sadly this will dominate in the short term so we will get more nonsense re rules and reGs. I suspect it will dissipate next year. In the meantime we just have to go with the flow. I got stopped by the coastguard in Italy last year and showed them a copy of my PAYE slip. They hadn’t a clue what it meant so tried to look smart, nodded and moved off.

 

[DAW]

I've always understood that a foreign flagged boat in French waters for more than purely transit purposes must fully comply with French regulations for vessel registration, licensing of skipper, safety equipment onboard, etc. Under UNECE guidelines, they have and should continue to recognise UK equivalent qualifications. I've never had a problem with acceptance of my RYA/ICC qualifications, and I've been assured that this will not change post Brexit.

MCA guidance on safety equipment for vessels of 13-24m is much more comprehensive than the equivalent French regulations, so fully comply with this and one or two bizarre French rules (such as the requirement to have a selection of wooden bungs and a pocket mirror onboard) and you should pass any inspection.

I can't comment on the situation in Spain, but I've been told that keeping a foreign flagged boat in French waters post-Brexit brings added complications, but only for those that want to spend more than 90 days onboard or own property in France and apply for the "Brexit" long-stay resident visa. Foreign nationals regarded as "resident" in France are subject to additional taxes and to "passport" requirements for foreign-flagged vessels. Claiming your principal place of residence is somewhere else does not exempt you from this.

Obviously, the extent to which they enforce the rules remains to be seen. In a typical season, we might get checked once or twice and its usually a very casual, friendly experience. All I've ever been asked to produce is the registration document, skipper's licence, VAT receipt and the right number of in-date life jackets.

 

[julians]

getting back on topic , looks like the EU will be allowing travel within the bloc based on their health passport, which looks like a traveller would need to have one of the following to be allowed to travel

- Be vaccinated OR
- Have a recent negative test OR
- Have recently recovered from cv19

Not sure whether those conditions would also apply to brits wanting to visit the EU?

 

[jrudge]

the issue is being able to prove option 1 and 3 !

 

[Portofino]

I've always understood that a foreign flagged boat in French waters for more than purely transit purposes must fully comply with French regulations for vessel registration, licensing of skipper, safety equipment onboard, etc. Under UNECE guidelines, they have and should continue to recognise UK equivalent qualifications. I've never had a problem with acceptance of my RYA/ICC qualifications, and I've been assured that this will not change post Brexit.

MCA guidance on safety equipment for vessels of 13-24m is much more comprehensive than the equivalent French regulations, so fully comply with this and one or two bizarre French rules (such as the requirement to have a selection of wooden bungs and a pocket mirror onboard) and you should pass any inspection.

I can't comment on the situation in Spain, but I've been told that keeping a foreign flagged boat in French waters post-Brexit brings added complications, but only for those that want to spend more than 90 days onboard or own property in France and apply for the "Brexit" long-stay resident visa. Foreign nationals regarded as "resident" in France are subject to additional taxes and to "passport" requirements for foreign-flagged vessels. Claiming your principal place of residence is somewhere else does not exempt you from this.

Obviously, the extent to which they enforce the rules remains to be seen. In a typical season, we might get checked once or twice and its usually a very casual, friendly experience. All I've ever been asked to produce is the registration document, skipper's licence, VAT receipt and the right number of in-date life jackets.

Who or where did you get in para 1 “I've been assured that this will not change post Brexit.” If you do not mind me asking ?

The Greeks recently appeared via thread on here seem to have taken a different view if not on transit fined a U.K. qualified only guy when he moved his rib who permanently kept it in GR waters .Fined him for not having suitable qualifications,.They stoped recognising the RYA stuff which was accepted prior to Brexit .
As in my post #254 took the legal higher ground with the newly labelled 3 P status of the U.K. .


Your para 2 is at odds with para 1 .
In para 2 you say you have adopted the local rules ( so have I btw ) presumably because the boat spends more time than the transit cop out of 6 m, ie it’s permanently berthed in Fr ,= makes perfect sense , yet in para 1 it ok to skip the rule s on Qualifications??

As I said I sincerely hope so .

It’s hard to predict at this point in time this how this is gonna pan out , I cannot see them turning a blind eye for ever .
The best I think those without local qualifications ( who want to stay longer than 6 months in one EU berth ) can hope for is a grace period long enough to meet the local rules .
The NI border fiasco , the Dutch ham sarnie confiscation - it’s technically a meat import from a 3 p etc , The 50 forms to export a live lobster etc etc .The Greeks latching straight on this as a revenue earner ....much needed .

Hopefully like taking a ham sarnie there will develop a common sense approach by officials??

 

[DAW]

Who or where did you get in para 1 “I've been assured that this will not change post Brexit.” If you do not mind me asking ?

The Greeks recently appeared via thread on here seem to have taken a different view if not on transit fined a U.K. qualified only guy when he moved his rib who permanently kept it in GR waters .Fined him for not having suitable qualifications,.They stoped recognising the RYA stuff which was accepted prior to Brexit .
As in my post #254 took the legal higher ground with the newly labelled 3 P status of the U.K. .


Your para 2 is at odds with para 1 .
In para 2 you say you have adopted the local rules ( so have I btw ) presumably because the boat spends more time than the transit cop out of 6 m, ie it’s permanently berthed in Fr ,= makes perfect sense , yet in para 1 it ok to skip the rule s on Qualifications??

As I said I sincerely hope so .

It’s hard to predict at this point in time this how this is gonna pan out , I cannot see them turning a blind eye for ever .
The best I think those without local qualifications ( who want to stay longer than 6 months in one EU berth ) can hope for is a grace period long enough to meet the local rules .
The NI border fiasco , the Dutch ham sarnie confiscation - it’s technically a meat import from a 3 p etc , The 50 forms to export a live lobster etc etc .The Greeks latching straight on this as a revenue earner ....much needed .

Hopefully like taking a ham sarnie there will develop a common sense approach by officials??

The information I have and the assurances received come from a lawyer based in Monaco specialising in marine law ... as you can imagine the impact of Brexit on private owners/operators and on the crew of larger/charter vessels has been a hot topic in recent months.

I don't think para 1 and 2 of my post are contradictory. It is clear that a UK-flagged boat kept permanently in French waters (or present on an extended basis during a cruise) has to comply with the French regulations. What I was saying is that by complying with the UK regulations plus one or two other "special" ones, you effectively achieve compliance with the French regulations.

The position on licensing as it was explained to me is as follows ... France does not recognise the RYA qualification itself and I don't think it ever formally has, although it may have been obliged to under the EU reciprocity rules. However, as an adopter of UNECE Resolution 40 they do recognise the ICC. This is not affected by Brexit or UK membership of the EU and so they should continue to do so. The ICC is an equivalent to the French "permis bateaux" and is recognised as such ... therefore, as the holder of an ICC, you have a valid licence to operate a boat up to 24m in French coastal waters. One area of uncertainty is whether the ICC you obtain as a result of holding only an RYA Day Skipper permit is equivalent to the French "cotier" or "hauturier" license. However, this would only be an issue when you are more than 6 miles from land but still in French territorial waters and I've never heard of anyone being checked this far out.

I am aware that not all EU countries have adopted UNECE Resolution 40, so perhaps different rules apply elsewhere.

 

[Moonstruck]

Some clarification printed in today’s Majorcan press.


RYA statement on nautical qualifications post Brexit in the Balearics

 

[Hooligan]

the issue is being able to prove option 1 and 3 !

1 is on everyone’s NHS app. Date and time and place of vaccination and type ie Pfizer or AZ etc. We will also be able to plug this into whatever Europe may want in my view. Greece for example are not going to be silly re this
3. All easy. Everyone who has had a positive test is recorded and the trail is very clear. We have had experience with my eldest who tested positive (shedding) 10 days after having recovered from Covid and as part of test in a foreign country. They accepted her NHS documentation re the positive test. Again it lists date of test, and result.
the issue for people who have had Covid is if you did not get a test. Ergo if anyone thinks they have it, even if not that ill ie loss of taste etc, go and get a test. It is documentary record of having had it and recovered.

 

[Portofino]

The information I have and the assurances received come from a lawyer based in Monaco specialising in marine law ... as you can imagine the impact of Brexit on private owners/operators and on the crew of larger/charter vessels has been a hot topic in recent months.

I don't think para 1 and 2 of my post are contradictory. It is clear that a UK-flagged boat kept permanently in French waters (or present on an extended basis during a cruise) has to comply with the French regulations. What I was saying is that by complying with the UK regulations plus one or two other "special" ones, you effectively achieve compliance with the French regulations.

The position on licensing as it was explained to me is as follows ... France does not recognise the RYA qualification itself and I don't think it ever formally has, although it may have been obliged to under the EU reciprocity rules. However, as an adopter of UNECE Resolution 40 they do recognise the ICC. This is not affected by Brexit or UK membership of the EU and so they should continue to do so. The ICC is an equivalent to the French "permis bateaux" and is recognised as such ... therefore, as the holder of an ICC, you have a valid licence to operate a boat up to 24m in French coastal waters. One area of uncertainty is whether the ICC you obtain as a result of holding only an RYA Day Skipper permit is equivalent to the French "cotier" or "hauturier" license. However, this would only be an issue when you are more than 6 miles from land but still in French territorial waters and I've never heard of anyone being checked this far out.

I am aware that not all EU countries have adopted UNECE Resolution 40, so perhaps different rules apply elsewhere.

Yes but what about the time limit’s when not transiting ?
It’s not clear on the permanent berthing question , which is the issue of having to adopt all the local rules , equipment + qualifications.

Digressing say you bought a swan 75 with the intention of cruising the world , doing the Med first then Caribbean,Panama canal - Pacific etc , with stop overs .
Then as you swan along the CdA because it’s basically been in Fr waters less than 6/12 when boarded at anchor in Villfranche bay your RYA stuff is fine on your red flagged boat . Is not this what [UNECE Resolution 40 concerning recognition of the ICC, the ICC is recommended and valid for British Citizens operating UK flagged vessels."] is about ?

Hence the it’s nothing to do with EU membership, Brexit etc it never was , no change there as your lawyer pointed out .

Extending your stay as a 3p , none EU member to exceed the 6 m reasonable transitions time , then which rules CAN they apply .
Uncloss 11 ? They could argue “ why not apply them “

Turn it around a NZ or SA , or HK guy sets off in his under 24 M boat and winds up in Antibes likes it and buys a berth or as from 1-1-21 a U.K. guy ,Each fully as applicable quallyied up with there own states relevant boating qualifications , in the U.K. s case the RYA .Each guy then buys the local rules kit ,the Fr specific flare pack , the signal mirror et al that’s the easy bit to comply if not on transient passage .

Depends if idea of UNECE Resolution 40 concerning recognition of the ICC, the ICC is recommended and valid for British Citizens operating UK flagged vessels." Was it designed , intended to harmonise qualifications on innocent passages only ?
The guys above might transit dozens states on there tours .

Is it in perpetuity if you decide to permanently berth your boat it’s not clear?

If so the crux of the matter is those who berth permanently in a state thats signed up to UNECE Resolution 40 ,have nothing to fear .
Equally whats stopping them applying Uncloss11 ?

 

[DavidJ]

Some clarification printed in today’s Majorcan press.


RYA statement on nautical qualifications post Brexit in the Balearics

It just gets worse the more detail that comes out.

From Moonstruck’s link
As a result RYA certificates are no longer accepted for operating a Spanish flagged boat (including bareboat charter)

So chartering in Spain and maybe the whole of the EU is now out for us Brits

 

[Moonstruck]

It just gets worse the more detail that comes out.

From Moonstruck’s link
As a result RYA certificates are no longer accepted for operating a Spanish flagged boat (including bareboat charter)

So chartering in Spain and maybe the whole of the EU is now out for us Brits

I am guessing this is one of the rules they are looking to change otherwise the charter companies and hire boat companies will be seriously affected and they are mainly Spanish owned I would guess ?

 

[DAW]

Yes but what about the time limit’s when not transiting ?
It’s not clear on the permanent berthing question , which is the issue of having to adopt all the local rules , equipment + qualifications.

Digressing say you bought a swan 75 with the intention of cruising the world , doing the Med first then Caribbean,Panama canal - Pacific etc , with stop overs .
Then as you swan along the CdA because it’s basically been in Fr waters less than 6/12 when boarded at anchor in Villfranche bay your RYA stuff is fine on your red flagged boat . Is not this what [UNECE Resolution 40 concerning recognition of the ICC, the ICC is recommended and valid for British Citizens operating UK flagged vessels."] is about ?

Hence the it’s nothing to do with EU membership, Brexit etc it never was , no change there as your lawyer pointed out .

Extending your stay as a 3p , none EU member to exceed the 6 m reasonable transitions time , then which rules CAN they apply .
Uncloss 11 ? They could argue “ why not apply them “

Turn it around a NZ or SA , or HK guy sets off in his under 24 M boat and winds up in Antibes likes it and buys a berth or as from 1-1-21 a U.K. guy ,Each fully as applicable quallyied up with there own states relevant boating qualifications , in the U.K. s case the RYA .Each guy then buys the local rules kit ,the Fr specific flare pack , the signal mirror et al that’s the easy bit to comply if not on transient passage .

Depends if idea of UNECE Resolution 40 concerning recognition of the ICC, the ICC is recommended and valid for British Citizens operating UK flagged vessels." Was it designed , intended to harmonise qualifications on innocent passages only ?
The guys above might transit dozens states on there tours .

Is it in perpetuity if you decide to permanently berth your boat it’s not clear?

If so the crux of the matter is those who berth permanently in a state thats signed up to UNECE Resolution 40 ,have nothing to fear .
Equally whats stopping them applying Uncloss11 ?

Not sure I fully understand all the different points you are trying to make here ... and we seem to have drifted a very long way from considering the impact of Brexit on the validity of a UK citizen's boating qualification.

UNCLOS applies to foreign vessels on "innocent passage" through territorial waters. Innocent passage includes anchoring and stopping and travelling to or from a port, but only to the extent it is incidental to the main purpose of the passage. Once you decide to stay, whether by purchasing or renting a berth, or through the passage of time, you are clearly not on "innocent passage", UNCLOS does not apply and you fall within the scope of national regulations. In any event, UNCLOS specifically grants to each "coastal State" the right to establish its own laws and regulations in connection with "the safety of navigation and the regulation of marine traffic" within its territorial waters, the only requirement being that these regulations are not in conflict with UNCLOS or International law. It goes on to state that foreign vessels on innocent passage through territorial waters are required to comply with coastal State regulations at all times.

As explained to me, the situation in French waters is clear. To operate a powered pleasure vessel in French waters you need a "permis bateau cotier" within the 6 mile limit and a "permis bateau hauturier" from 6-12 miles, or a recognised equivalent. Your own state's qualification may or may not be a recognised equivalent depending upon a lot of factors (including membership or not of the EU) and this is easy to establish. Under UNECE Resolution 40, the ICC issued by the RYA is a recognised equivalent and will continue to be so. The requirement for evidence of competence applies to the skipper and it doesn't matter where the boat is registered, how long it spends in French waters or where it is kept ... the requirement is the same.

When I first decided to keep a boat in French waters over ten years ago, I was told there is no exemption from complying with the French regulations just because you are a British citizen on a British flagged boat and the UK does not require a licence for pleasure vessels. I was also told my existing RYA qualification would probably be acceptable under EU reciprocity rules, but was strongly advised to get an ICC to avoid any unneceesary problems.

 

[Bouba]

Not sure I fully understand all the different points you are trying to make here ... and we seem to have drifted a very long way from considering the impact of Brexit on the validity of a UK citizen's boating qualification.

UNCLOS applies to foreign vessels on "innocent passage" through territorial waters. Innocent passage includes anchoring and stopping and travelling to or from a port, but only to the extent it is incidental to the main purpose of the passage. Once you decide to stay, whether by purchasing or renting a berth, or through the passage of time, you are clearly not on "innocent passage", UNCLOS does not apply and you fall within the scope of national regulations. In any event, UNCLOS specifically grants to each "coastal State" the right to establish its own laws and regulations in connection with "the safety of navigation and the regulation of marine traffic" within its territorial waters, the only requirement being that these regulations are not in conflict with UNCLOS or International law. It goes on to state that foreign vessels on innocent passage through territorial waters are required to comply with coastal State regulations at all times.

As explained to me, the situation in French waters is clear. To operate a powered pleasure vessel in French waters you need a "permis bateau cotier" within the 6 mile limit and a "permis bateau hauturier" from 6-12 miles, or a recognised equivalent. Your own state's qualification may or may not be a recognised equivalent depending upon a lot of factors (including membership or not of the EU) and this is easy to establish. Under UNECE Resolution 40, the ICC issued by the RYA is a recognised equivalent and will continue to be so. The requirement for evidence of competence applies to the skipper and it doesn't matter where the boat is registered, how long it spends in French waters or where it is kept ... the requirement is the same.

When I first decided to keep a boat in French waters over ten years ago, I was told there is no exemption from complying with the French regulations just because you are a British citizen on a British flagged boat and the UK does not require a licence for pleasure vessels. I was also told my existing RYA qualification would probably be acceptable under EU reciprocity rules, but was strongly advised to get an ICC to avoid any unneceesary problems.

The French Hauturier is unlimited in distance. There was talk of a demi Hauturier, where you don’t have to study tides to qualify and would be valid for the Med only

 

[Bouba]

Covid: Summer holidays abroad 'unlikely', warns government adviser
Looks like Porto could be right
I’m going boating tomorrow because our region only just escaped lockdown (a third of the French are locked down), so we should make hay while the sun shines. But, people, be like us, don’t go near other people. Stay isolated as much as humanly possible ??

 

[Portofino]

Covid: Summer holidays abroad 'unlikely', warns government adviser
Looks like Porto could be right
I’m going boating tomorrow because our region only just escaped lockdown (a third of the French are locked down), so we should make hay while the sun shines. But, people, be like us, don’t go near other people. Stay isolated as much as humanly possible ??

Regrettably see my posts 181 / 187 , the gov scientists in the news past 48 hrs seem to be in agreement.

A tech geofence via a phone for home quarantine with a huge £10 K fine if get caught you disobeying .If it’s feasible ? Dunno .
Might work .Plus test test test when you return to sure be you are not an a symptomatic carrier of a mutant you picked up abroad .

Maybe a finger print or retinal scan PW access to respond to a random pinging on your phone from test track and trace when you return ??
Dare you leave your phone at home to nip out anywhere within the quarantine period ? Failure to reply in reasonable time = fine
Take it with you and Zuckerberg or similar grasses you up = bigger fine(s) based on % wealth .

Or just plane old fashioned ban on none essential travel summer 21 ??

EU might get a grip by Sept Oct ?? Hard to judge by current performance tbh .

 

[sarabande1]

Covid: Summer holidays abroad 'unlikely', warns government adviser

That was always going to be far more likely than an early opening as I see some have predicted on here. Until European countries have vaccinated the majority of their adults and see a sustained downward trend in infections as a result, then we Brits are going nowhere. And seeing what an utter mess that Europe has made of their vaccine program so far, its anybody's guess when that might be. And there is a further danger in that whilst Europe's infection numbers remain out of control there is an increased risk of additional variants mutating which may or may not be resistant to the vaccine and the UK govt will be especially keen to keep those out of the UK, making travel to the EU even less likely. Maybe time to book your summer holiday in Margate rather than Marbella

 

[LBRodders]

Covid: Summer holidays abroad 'unlikely', warns government adviser
Looks like Porto could be right
I’m going boating tomorrow because our region only just escaped lockdown (a third of the French are locked down), so we should make hay while the sun shines. But, people, be like us, don’t go near other people. Stay isolated as much as humanly possible ??

Could be the start of the end.

The penny will drop that we have to just learn to live with it.

 

[sarabande1]

Could be the start of the end.

The penny will drop that we have to just learn to live with it.

Depends how many hundreds of thousands of dead people you think is a price worth paying for you to enjoy a normal life or, if youre one of the unlucky ones, succumb to Covid yourself? There is also a huge amount of doubt over whether herd immunity can ever be achieved given that natural immunity only seems to last a matter of months. Regular vaccination is the only way out of this

 

[LBRodders]

Regular vaccination is the only way out of this

I don't disagree.
However, there's more to life than just avoiding death.

 

[Clancy Moped]

Depends how many hundreds of thousands of dead people you think is a price worth paying for you to enjoy a normal life or, if youre one of the unlucky ones, succumb to Covid yourself? There is also a huge amount of doubt over whether herd immunity can ever be achieved given that natural immunity only seems to last a matter of months. Regular vaccination is the only way out of this

Are the mods reinventing themselves?