MECC ALTE MR2-160 8KW generator regulator Q

[vas]

evening all, I think this one is for ARE but open to discussion as always

so, my MASE IS8 (or something like that) generator is back in business after a complete overhaul of the Yanmar 2GM motor.
It's a 3K rpm motor with closed cooling circuit.
Ordered a linear actuator that I'm going to use to up and lower and generally regulate rpm to avoid having to rebuilt it in another 1k hours (if i ever do that)
Two issues I'm trying to address is:
1. what/how to cut output during low rpm warming and cooling periods
2. charge a 60-70Ah starter battery for the thing

Now, bear with me, all literature on the MASE show a completely different generator at the back so all wiring/connections/etc are completely wrong. Going to the MECC ALTE site and literature I get no info on the high current layout/wiring/etc. So I'm slightly stuck

Took a couple of pics of the box and it definitely looks like an old school thing with two LARGE capacitors (as in 100mm long and around 40mm in dia) and a 4 terminal take off with the wiring coming from the innards of the generator going to the two schuko sockets and two tiny wires going to the Vmeter that doesn't work.
Further the two terminals that you're meant to connect the battery to charge it from the whatever secondary coil of the generator are there but the cables at the back go nowhere, just hanging there (cut some tie wraps that were holding them securely to the rest of the cabling just to make sure they are the ones...)

So looks like I have no Automatic Voltage Regulator, is that too bad, no idea, thing works anyway!

main Q, is it safe to just insert a relay in between the main cables coming out of the generator so that I have no output to the capacitors and sockets at low rpm?
thinking about it, when turning off the generator from the helm and looking at the V meters, on dying and with the rpm lowering there's a peak in the V followed by a graduate drop to zero. But that peak can be in excess of 260V! I know I should remove load before turning on and off but I v.rarely bother tbh.

side Q, is there an easy trick to get a 12V charging circuit on that thing, or I just plug my Victron 12V15A charger permanently so that it charges the battery when the thing is running? Alternatively, find a cheap alternator and stick it on the yanmar (just a simple pulley to tension the water pump belt at the moment in it's place)

so what do you think?

cheers

V.

 

[Andy Cox]

Vas, I can't help with the first question, but the second one I would go for fitting a 12v alternator, which is the setup I have on my Northern Lights 12KVa and what I see on most other units. Your Yanmar would normally have an alt anyway, so presumably it should be a really easy job?

I've kinda been following your genny threads and I really like your idea of a variable RPM system and will read on with interest:encouragement:

Andy

 

[ARE]

evening all, I think this one is for ARE but open to discussion as always

so, my MASE IS8 (or something like that) generator is back in business after a complete overhaul of the Yanmar 2GM motor.
It's a 3K rpm motor with closed cooling circuit.
Ordered a linear actuator that I'm going to use to up and lower and generally regulate rpm to avoid having to rebuilt it in another 1k hours (if i ever do that)
Two issues I'm trying to address is:
1. what/how to cut output during low rpm warming and cooling periods
2. charge a 60-70Ah starter battery for the thing

Now, bear with me, all literature on the MASE show a completely different generator at the back so all wiring/connections/etc are completely wrong. Going to the MECC ALTE site and literature I get no info on the high current layout/wiring/etc. So I'm slightly stuck

Took a couple of pics of the box and it definitely looks like an old school thing with two LARGE capacitors (as in 100mm long and around 40mm in dia) and a 4 terminal take off with the wiring coming from the innards of the generator going to the two schuko sockets and two tiny wires going to the Vmeter that doesn't work.
Further the two terminals that you're meant to connect the battery to charge it from the whatever secondary coil of the generator are there but the cables at the back go nowhere, just hanging there (cut some tie wraps that were holding them securely to the rest of the cabling just to make sure they are the ones...)

So looks like I have no Automatic Voltage Regulator, is that too bad, no idea, thing works anyway!

main Q, is it safe to just insert a relay in between the main cables coming out of the generator so that I have no output to the capacitors and sockets at low rpm?
thinking about it, when turning off the generator from the helm and looking at the V meters, on dying and with the rpm lowering there's a peak in the V followed by a graduate drop to zero. But that peak can be in excess of 260V! I know I should remove load before turning on and off but I v.rarely bother tbh.

side Q, is there an easy trick to get a 12V charging circuit on that thing, or I just plug my Victron 12V15A charger permanently so that it charges the battery when the thing is running? Alternatively, find a cheap alternator and stick it on the yanmar (just a simple pulley to tension the water pump belt at the moment in it's place)

so what do you think?

cheers

V.

So you have a capacitor regulated generator, rather than a AVR controlled generator.

You will not damage the capacitors by running the engine at low engine speed, you just need to add some sort of timer relay to delay the output to the boat until the engine is up at running speed. Maybe you could connect it in to the control for the linear actuator so that it only operates when the actuator is in the high speed position.

 

[superheat6k]

Vas I assume you are aware that the output frequency is a direct function of the generator speed. At 3,000 RPM a 2 pole alternator will provide an output of 50 hz.

So if you slow it down you will reduce the frequency of the output and with it more or less in direct proportion the output voltage. So at say 2,000 RPM the frequency will be ~ 33.3 hz and the voltage will reduce to ~ 155 volts.

This may have quite an adverse affect on any equipment you are running from the generator.

I did note the series link on the two generator outputs, which would be ~ 115v each, so two in series ~ 230v.

 

[vas]

So you have a capacitor regulated generator, rather than a AVR controlled generator.

You will not damage the capacitors by running the engine at low engine speed, you just need to add some sort of timer relay to delay the output to the boat until the engine is up at running speed. Maybe you could connect it in to the control for the linear actuator so that it only operates when the actuator is in the high speed position.

Thanks Anthony,

I guess I could "cut" the output AFTER the capacitors with a simple over-under volt relay (20quid or so) which would nicely fit in the black enclosure there and be done with.

Vas I assume you are aware that the output frequency is a direct function of the generator speed. At 3,000 RPM a 2 pole alternator will provide an output of 50 hz.

So if you slow it down you will reduce the frequency of the output and with it more or less in direct proportion the output voltage. So at say 2,000 RPM the frequency will be ~ 33.3 hz and the voltage will reduce to ~ 155 volts.

This may have quite an adverse affect on any equipment you are running from the generator.

I did note the series link on the two generator outputs, which would be ~ 115v each, so two in series ~ 230v.

Trevor,

yes I'm well aware, you've probably missed some earlier discussion on the topic.
Plan is to have a small board (arduino most likely) moving the governor via a linear actuator with feedback (ordered waiting for arrival - was 100euro +VAT) and a control loop checking frequency so that it's smack 50Hz aka 3000rpm. Generator doesn't have an alternator which would be easy way of checking rpm, so a small circuit checking AC frequency should do.

Just for an overview (will probably start a thread on that alone soon) the arduino will do:

• comms via NMEA2000 with the rest of the boat and two touch screen controllers (one on each helm) so that I can start/stop/check generator
• read/report oil pressure
• read/report coolant temp
• read/report seawater pressure
• read/report EGT (if I manage to get the probe safely in the exhaust elbow)
• regulate rpm via the linear actuator
• control the starter motor via a SS DD 40A relay
• count hours of operation

enough!

Now, when I touch the lcd screen to start the generator

• linear actuator will get the governor at 1000rpm or so, run the starter for X secs, check in 5secs that Hz is around 15 or so (or check oil pressure is up) and establish motor is running.
• if not, wait and repeat (3 times then obviously something else is wrong so abort!)
• run a counter for 2-3mins till temp has moved a bit, then gradually up the speed via the linear actuator to 3000.
• The 3K will be established by a small circuit monitoring AC Hz frequency (fairly easy and accurate to do on a teensy or ESP32S)
• Once there, the under/over voltage regulator will click and give power to the output. I could avoid the 20euro of this regulator if I could find a cheap and strong relay for 40A (only I haven't!)
• While running, it's going to keep on monitoring temps/press to make sure things are ok.
• If the load is too high, it may have to alter the governor but I'm not sure it's going to be needed, will check with the stab 3p motor running

On instructing the generator to switch off (again from the touch screen via a custom NMEA2000 sentence)

• linear actuator will drop the rpm to 1500 and then 1000
• under/over will switch power off straight away, so appliances are safe.
• timer will count another 2mins or so and linear actuator will push all the way out so that fuel is cut (I'll remove the idle stop on the governor) and engine dies. This way I'll avoid an extra instruction and stop solenoid to kill the engine and kill two birds with one stone.
• For the record linear actuator is .2-.3A operation via a H bridge 2euro chip/board.
• I'll check Hz is 0 and oilpressure is also 0 before declaring engine is turned off
• linear actuator will pull to around 1000rpm position and stay there waiting for next start attempt (or could pull to normal 3K rpm position so that the ram is protected from dust/whatnot and only pull out to idle when I try to start again the motor)

Should be fun setting up that lot, although it's peanuts compared to the stab operation routines

cheers

V.

PS. if you have any extra suggestions let me know!

 

[superheat6k]

Why are you so concerned about start and stop being to / from 1,000 rpm ?

I don't see how this will alter the service interval unduly, assuming once started the genny may be running for hours, whereas the start / stop process is just a few minutes.

You could use 2 poles of a contactor instead of a relay. I can find you a decent one say 40a from our miscellaneous spares cupboard, but it will likely have a 240v coil.

 

[vas]

Trevor, this week I paid 1000euro on fully rebuilding a 1K h yanmar 2GM
liners were fine, rings slightly stuck, metals needed changing, bits and bobs needed everywhere.
Not quite sure how it ended up in this sorry state (only used it for 30odd hours), but one argument was the start stop from 3K rpm.
Not too bothered with 1000rpm, could be 700, could be 1200, just don't want to start it at 3K rpm and definitely don't want to stop it from that.
I also don't want it to start and get working hard straight away, I know I could turn off and on the output from the lower helm dash but I want as simple an operation as possible. I've been in a couple of friends' sailboats and they are mental about turning off anything not needed which I find annoying and silly, so I want to use the boat as I do with my house.
so more like a belt and braces approach (and a fun way to spend a couple of evenings...)
Further, the fuel solenoid that was on the fuel line coming into the main pump from the lift pump was also causing issues so I dumped it and needed a normal stop solenoid (at 80euro give or take) so with a bit more I got the linear actuator that I want to play with as I'll need it with some projects with my students.

True, should have a look at Schneider if the have a 3V signal, 12V triggered 240V contactor, as if...
arduino signals are 30-40mA 3.3V, not enough to pull a contactor, means I should get a small relay triggered by that 3.3V to close a 2A 12V, which should then trigger a 240V contactor, and it does get too complicated. Do you think I have another option?

I was thinking of using something like this with fairly tight adjustment (210-245):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZPV36-T-...935319?hash=item3d792c0dd7:g:VFEAAOSwwo1XfG5E

cheers

V.

 

[superheat6k]

Trevor, this week I paid 1000euro on fully rebuilding a 1K h yanmar 2GM
liners were fine, rings slightly stuck, metals needed changing, bits and bobs needed everywhere.
Not quite sure how it ended up in this sorry state (only used it for 30odd hours), but one argument was the start stop from 3K rpm.
Not too bothered with 1000rpm, could be 700, could be 1200, just don't want to start it at 3K rpm and definitely don't want to stop it from that.
I also don't want it to start and get working hard straight away, I know I could turn off and on the output from the lower helm dash but I want as simple an operation as possible. I've been in a couple of friends' sailboats and they are mental about turning off anything not needed which I find annoying and silly, so I want to use the boat as I do with my house.
so more like a belt and braces approach (and a fun way to spend a couple of evenings...)
Further, the fuel solenoid that was on the fuel line coming into the main pump from the lift pump was also causing issues so I dumped it and needed a normal stop solenoid (at 80euro give or take) so with a bit more I got the linear actuator that I want to play with as I'll need it with some projects with my students.

True, should have a look at Schneider if the have a 3V signal, 12V triggered 240V contactor, as if...
arduino signals are 30-40mA 3.3V, not enough to pull a contactor, means I should get a small relay triggered by that 3.3V to close a 2A 12V, which should then trigger a 240V contactor, and it does get too complicated. Do you think I have another option?

I was thinking of using something like this with fairly tight adjustment (210-245):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZPV36-T-...935319?hash=item3d792c0dd7:g:VFEAAOSwwo1XfG5E

cheers

V.

The only thing I would watch for is that the relay doesn't turn off the output when a hefty load starts and causes a voltage dip.

 

[vas]

The only thing I would watch for is that the relay doesn't turn off the output when a hefty load starts and causes a voltage dip.

true!

looks like I'll be ordering this which features a Voltometer so I don't have to repair the needle one on the box
second page has the diagram of how it works, looks good
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FwfXoCza-iysdcEw-RmTN0D2mM1xNs7B/view

1sec under before it cuts power, should be OK. Adjustable duration of cuttoff.
Further, don't forget you helped me with the inverter slow start/stop for the watermaker and I've done the same with the stabs hydraulics pump. So my two main loads are softstarting anyway.
Got to check the aircon firing up though...

cheers

V.