Marine Gender Equality

JumbleDuck said:
I beg to disagree. Gender in French and German is a fundamental part of the grammatical structure of the language and with very few exception stays the same across all users of the language. It's "le navire" in France, Canada, Belgium and Rwanda, it's "das Schiff" in Germany, Austria and Namibia and it's "het schip" in the Netherlands, Belgium and Surinam. Those genders go on to affect pronouns, adjectives and more.

Calling a ship "she" is not a grammatical gender. It's a tradition/custom/affectation which is not shared by all users of the language. I believe that "scip" in Anglo-Saxon, which does have genders, is neuter, so at some point the grammatical origin has gone wrong anyway.

I sometimes call my boat she (normally when talking to other sailors) and sometimes it (because I think it can sound pretentious to no sailors). If the "she" usage causes offence then I would be perfectly happy to switch to "it" all the time: like all of what the right like to call "political correctness" is really just a matter of manners.

So is "she" offensive? Not my call. That's one for women to decide about. The rest of us should listen with respect to their opinion.
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Well said JD, a neat analysis of the subject. Like you, I sometimes call my yacht "she" and more often"it". I certainly don't view it as a sex object, so the neuter is more logical.
But I would be pretty miffed if anyone came along and told me that I SHOULD be using one or the other, just because they found my usage offensive!
Peter
 
Where do we stop?
Do I have to change all my Person Over Board equipment and start to call my cockpit a poultry pit?
 
My boats a bitch right now. Giving me endless grief, jobs, frustration and taking all my time up. When she behaves I do love her though. She will always be a she and the PC crowd can plough their own stupid furrow.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I beg to disagree. Gender in French and German is a fundamental part of the grammatical structure of the language and with very few exception stays the same across all users of the language. It's "le navire" in France, Canada, Belgium and Rwanda, it's "das Schiff" in Germany, Austria and Namibia and it's "het schip" in the Netherlands, Belgium and Surinam. Those genders go on to affect pronouns, adjectives and more.

Calling a ship "she" is not a grammatical gender. It's a tradition/custom/affectation which is not shared by all users of the language. I believe that "scip" in Anglo-Saxon, which does have genders, is neuter, so at some point the grammatical origin has gone wrong anyway.

I sometimes call my boat she (normally when talking to other sailors) and sometimes it (because I think it can sound pretentious to no sailors). If the "she" usage causes offence then I would be perfectly happy to switch to "it" all the time: like all of what the right like to call "political correctness" is really just a matter of manners.

So is "she" offensive? Not my call. That's one for women to decide about. The rest of us should listen with respect to their opinion.
Click to expand...

OK, I sort of agree but the point I'm trying to make (not very well perhaps) is that referring to a boat or a ship as she is simply a language thing (to me at least, and to most of the folk I know). I regard that as grammar but I could be wrong on that - the key thing is it has no relationship to women, girls or anything to do with human gender. I can't see how that can be remotely offensive or disrespectful to anyone who understands the usage. I do regard some of the attempts to explain how the usage originated with embarrassing analogies (and I've probably been guilty of that myself at some point) as, as best, cringe-worthy but that's a problem with a person comparing a boat with women, not with using the correct pronoun for a boat according to the English language. I've listened to 60 years of Mankind being to blame for things but never actually associated that with meaning that only males were actually responsible and I would struggle to respect the opinion of anyone who thought that the use of Mankind only meant Men.

I am happy to listen to anyone's opinion, regardless of gender - I regard the intelligence and reasonableness of the person offering it (a very subjective thing I admit) as the key factors in deciding what value it has. If someone was offended by it I would probably try to understand why and I suspect their approach would sway my subsequent behaviour.

I guess the real problem I have with all this is that this isn't language just naturally evolving, this is a small group of people forcing a change to try and prove a point. It doesn't help that they are doing a dis-service in the process by alienating many people and side-tracking them from genuine issues.
 
grumpy_o_g said:
OK, I sort of agree but the point I'm trying to make (not very well perhaps) is that referring to a boat or a ship as she is simply a language thing (to me at least, and to most of the folk I know). I regard that as grammar but I could be wrong on that - the key thing is it has no relationship to women, girls or anything to do with human gender. I can't see how that can be remotely offensive or disrespectful to anyone who understands the usage. I do regard some of the attempts to explain how the usage originated with embarrassing analogies (and I've probably been guilty of that myself at some point) as, as best, cringe-worthy but that's a problem with a person comparing a boat with women, not with using the correct pronoun for a boat according to the English language. I've listened to 60 years of Mankind being to blame for things but never actually associated that with meaning that only males were actually responsible and I would struggle to respect the opinion of anyone who thought that the use of Mankind only meant Men.

I am happy to listen to anyone's opinion, regardless of gender - I regard the intelligence and reasonableness of the person offering it (a very subjective thing I admit) as the key factors in deciding what value it has. If someone was offended by it I would probably try to understand why and I suspect their approach would sway my subsequent behaviour.

I guess the real problem I have with all this is that this isn't language just naturally evolving, this is a small group of people forcing a change to try and prove a point. It doesn't help that they are doing a dis-service in the process by alienating many people and side-tracking them from genuine issues.
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+1 Nicely put.
 
grumpy_o_g said:
OK, I sort of agree but the point I'm trying to make (not very well perhaps) is that referring to a boat or a ship as she is simply a language thing (to me at least, and to most of the folk I know). I regard that as grammar but I could be wrong on that - the key thing is it has no relationship to women, girls or anything to do with human gender.
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I agree with that. Not really grammar, just a traditional usage.
 
Calling a ship she is offensive to women?
Or offensive to self opinionated people who just might have internal gonads?

I am thinking we will soon have to stop calling them women but instead call them Persons of Female Gender.
 
Being non-native speaker and a woman, I remember my amusement when being told by our English teacher that the Moon, cars and boats are refered to as "she".
Why?!! Was the general concensus among my schoolfriends.
In our native tongue, there are three grammatical genders, m,f,n; and the nouns as well as adjectives, are always in accordance. Thus my own boat is a "she" being a sailboat, but a "he" being a (tiny)yacht, and lastly an "it" being a vessel.
Confusing?! You bet... :)
Anna
 
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"She's drawin' ahead, Sir," shouted M'Kellar, tense, excited. "East,
b' nor' ... an' fast!"

The Old Man raised a warning hand to the steersman. "Nae higher! Nae
higher! Goad, man! Dinna let 'r gripe!"

Dread suspense! Would she clear? A narrow lane of open water lay
clear of the bow--broadening as we sped on.

"Nae higher! Nae higher! Aff! Aff! Up hellum, up!" His voice a
scream, the Old Man turned to bear a frantic heave on the spokes.

Obedient to the helm and the Mate's ready hand at the driver sheets,
she flew off, free of the wind and sea--tearing past the towering
rocks, a cable's length to leeward. Shock upon shock, the great
Atlantic sea broke and shattered and fell back from the scarred granite
face of the outmost Stag; a seething maelstrom of tortured waters,
roaring, crashing, shrilling into the deep, jagged fissures--a shriek
of Furies bereft. And, high above the tumult of the waters and the
loud, glad cries of us, the hoarse, choking voice of the man who had
backed his ship.

"Done it, ye bitch!"--a now trembling hand at his old grey head. "Done
it! Weathered--by Goad!"


David Bone "The Brassbounder"
 
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want to make some enemies quickly ....
.......try changing something :)
Never have so many high horses been clambered on quite so fast and probably why so many clubs are dying on their feet.
 
I so don't give a damn.

A minority of the population will always want to make everyone else feel miserable. Why let them?

If some people choose to feel oppressed by a pronoun, then that's their stress - you don't have to let it be your's!
 
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